H
Hanzo04
Guest
who is the greatest hapkidoist of all time?
Navigation
Install the app
How to install the app on iOS
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
More options
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
OP
Master Todd Miller
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #2
I am wondering Who would ask that kind of question?
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
OP
SmellyMonkey
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #3
My Korean masters always stress that you must move like "cat animal" in order to be great in hapkido.
So I'd say my cats have to be ranked pretty high up there....
So I'd say my cats have to be ranked pretty high up there....
OP
Black Belt FC
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #4
Non Korean In USA JR West
Korean IN USA Ji Han Jae
Non Korean In Canada Rudy W. Timmerman
Korean IN USA Ji Han Jae
Non Korean In Canada Rudy W. Timmerman
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Thats a pretty tough question. The Hapkido arts tend to be pretty variant and we in the here&now are at a bit of a disadvantage with the loss of records prior to the Japanese Occupation and Korean War. I also think the results would be pretty subjective, right? For instance, concerning The Man (Choi Yong Sul) himself, I would probably think that his students moved the Hapkido arts beyond what he originally gave each of them. Of the Early Choi traditions I would probably rank Kim, Moo Woong as the best 1st Generation and In Hyuk Suh as the best regarded 2nd Generation. Its a bit trickier with the Late Choi traditions since I think the best gauge of a practitioner is less what HE does and more about the sort of students he produces. Kim, Jung and Lim, Hyun Su are still producing their 2nd Gen leadership candidates so I think its still a bit early.
Taken in a different direction the Jin Pal and Duk Mu people are pushing ahead with rapidly expanding organizations and some pretty aggressive agendas. Here in the West it would be pretty common to rate such efforts as very successful--- and by extension, the leadership---- compared with the original promotional efforts of, say, Choi Yong Sul. Guess I would have to know more about what the original question was trying to uncover. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Taken in a different direction the Jin Pal and Duk Mu people are pushing ahead with rapidly expanding organizations and some pretty aggressive agendas. Here in the West it would be pretty common to rate such efforts as very successful--- and by extension, the leadership---- compared with the original promotional efforts of, say, Choi Yong Sul. Guess I would have to know more about what the original question was trying to uncover. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Howard:
Yeah, and there is also the "name recognition" factor, too. How many times have you seen Bruce Lee touted as the "Greatest Martial Artist of All Time" simply because hes' a household name, ya know? I don't think I could begin to list all of the personalities who did more, contributed more and left more. Put on paper, Bruce Lee would be all the way down the sheet--- in fine print---- next to the page number. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Yeah, and there is also the "name recognition" factor, too. How many times have you seen Bruce Lee touted as the "Greatest Martial Artist of All Time" simply because hes' a household name, ya know? I don't think I could begin to list all of the personalities who did more, contributed more and left more. Put on paper, Bruce Lee would be all the way down the sheet--- in fine print---- next to the page number. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, master im hyun su's korean instructors are extremely impressive. really like watching poetry in motion on the mat. there are 3 who will be the core of his art when he moves on: rim chea kwan, shin dong won and kang won gee. master shin recently opened a second jungkikwan dojang in daegu (with master im's support). as crazy as it might sound, apparently he's not having the best of luck in attracting students.glad2bhere said:... Kim, Jung and Lim, Hyun Su are still producing their 2nd Gen leadership candidates so I think its still a bit early.
in addition, there are several master jungkikwan instructors (americans) in the northeastern US. these instructors make frequent trips to korea to further their knowledge. it's too bad master im's branch of hapkido has such a small following in this country.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Howard:
I think you are right on the money and thats why I think its important to reserve judgement on the Late Choi traditions for just a bit yet. From all that I have seen of the recent chaos in Hapkido arts there may be a silver lining to this dark cloud. At least people have a decent idea of what they DON'T want and what is NOT good for Hapkido arts. In this way people such as Lim are under a bit of pressure to show they are moving is a new and better direction. The good news is that people who regularly rub shoulders with Lim and his people routinely report good experiences, respectful treatment, competent teaching and effective, well-organized material. The Duk Mu people may be another opportunity and the Jin Pal people yet another. I say, "easy does it", "take it a step at a time" and "do it right the first time". If we learn from the past, the benefits could be wonderful. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I think you are right on the money and thats why I think its important to reserve judgement on the Late Choi traditions for just a bit yet. From all that I have seen of the recent chaos in Hapkido arts there may be a silver lining to this dark cloud. At least people have a decent idea of what they DON'T want and what is NOT good for Hapkido arts. In this way people such as Lim are under a bit of pressure to show they are moving is a new and better direction. The good news is that people who regularly rub shoulders with Lim and his people routinely report good experiences, respectful treatment, competent teaching and effective, well-organized material. The Duk Mu people may be another opportunity and the Jin Pal people yet another. I say, "easy does it", "take it a step at a time" and "do it right the first time". If we learn from the past, the benefits could be wonderful. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, not quite sure what you mean by master im being under pressure to move in a new direction... to me, he is the epitome of tradition. he professes to teach exactly what he learned from choi young sool, just as choi professed to teach exactly what he learned from sokaku takeda (for purposes of this discussion, i think we can leave aside the entire debate about whether choi young sool actually trained under takeda). it's hard for me to imagine him changing what he teaches no matter what happens among the large hapkido organizations.
anybody who could be fortunate enough to spend a few days in master im's dojang would probably conclude that he has no need to change anything he does. it's old style hapkido, take it or leave it. unfortunately, in both korea and the US, most people leave it.
btw, thought i'd mention, master rim chea kwan, who is master im's chief instructor in daegu, is also known as "fireman", because he is a career fireman. he was among those who responded to the tragic subway fire in daegu in february '03, where a psychopath set a fire inside a subway car in a station. if i recall correctly, nearly 200 people were killed.
anybody who could be fortunate enough to spend a few days in master im's dojang would probably conclude that he has no need to change anything he does. it's old style hapkido, take it or leave it. unfortunately, in both korea and the US, most people leave it.
btw, thought i'd mention, master rim chea kwan, who is master im's chief instructor in daegu, is also known as "fireman", because he is a career fireman. he was among those who responded to the tragic subway fire in daegu in february '03, where a psychopath set a fire inside a subway car in a station. if i recall correctly, nearly 200 people were killed.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Howard:
Sad to have to say this, but IMVVHO the very fact that Master Im is teaching the very traditional approach as presented to him by Choi Yong Sul actually makes what he is doing, by comparison, a "new direction". As I write this here in the States I know that the Early Choi traditions as represented by a range of folks have been twisted so many ways it makes me sick at heart. There are still folks like Ji Han Jae who continue to teach their material but they can't be everywhere at once. And there are more people making things up than following traditional lines. When Master Lim comes along and teaches HIS traditions as relayed from Choi Yong Sul the material I see two major pressures he would be exposed to. One is the commercial pressure to accept folks who don't do things the same way, wanting to join his kwan, but may "corrupt" Masters' methods. The other is the overall pressure from the Hapkido community who may borrow and incoporate Master Ims' material into their own methods, once again corrupting the purity (authenticity) of the material. I hope this is coming out clear. I didn't mean to suggest anything about Master Im, only that he may well be facing the same corrupting influences as did practitioners of Early Choi traditions and I am hoping he will fare better than did his earlier peers. Does this make sense?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Sad to have to say this, but IMVVHO the very fact that Master Im is teaching the very traditional approach as presented to him by Choi Yong Sul actually makes what he is doing, by comparison, a "new direction". As I write this here in the States I know that the Early Choi traditions as represented by a range of folks have been twisted so many ways it makes me sick at heart. There are still folks like Ji Han Jae who continue to teach their material but they can't be everywhere at once. And there are more people making things up than following traditional lines. When Master Lim comes along and teaches HIS traditions as relayed from Choi Yong Sul the material I see two major pressures he would be exposed to. One is the commercial pressure to accept folks who don't do things the same way, wanting to join his kwan, but may "corrupt" Masters' methods. The other is the overall pressure from the Hapkido community who may borrow and incoporate Master Ims' material into their own methods, once again corrupting the purity (authenticity) of the material. I hope this is coming out clear. I didn't mean to suggest anything about Master Im, only that he may well be facing the same corrupting influences as did practitioners of Early Choi traditions and I am hoping he will fare better than did his earlier peers. Does this make sense?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, yes, you're making sense. don't worry, i didn't take your previous post as anything negative toward master im.
your points about master im coming under pressure from others are interesting. i haven't had extensive contact with him, but i have never heard him talk about any dealings with other hapkido organizations. that doesn't seem to be his style. in fact, i have never heard him, or heard of him, make negative comments about any martial artist.
your points about master im coming under pressure from others are interesting. i haven't had extensive contact with him, but i have never heard him talk about any dealings with other hapkido organizations. that doesn't seem to be his style. in fact, i have never heard him, or heard of him, make negative comments about any martial artist.
OP
Master Todd Miller
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
GM Lim has an open door policy at the Jungki Kwan, All are welcome to come and train. There are members of the Jungki Kwan that have been in other organizations and they all have said the same thing "There is no one in Korea like GM Lim". When you look at many of the high ranking Masters in Hapkido that have promoted themselves or claimed that they are the new Doju Nim of Hapkido, it is nice to see someone like GM Lim who only claims what he was promoted to by his Masters, nothing more nothing less. The Jungki Kwans training methods focus on developing awesome basics and this can be hard for high ranking masters to deal with when they realize there foundation is weak! Some will just leave with a bad taste but it is not anything to do with the Jungki Kwans methods or Masters. :asian:
Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Todd:
......and THIS is the sort of direction I think that the Hapkido arts needed to be going in for years. I rake the leadership of various organizations over the coals because they seem to have allowed the Hapkido arts to devolve into organizational and commercial "***** fights". In my research I follow the KMA after the Yuan Dyn (Mongols) which means that we have traditions that can be documented back some 600 years. When compared with the Japanese and Chinese traditions, I am afraid that the Korean martial traditions could have reached a much higher level of sophistication had we been doing more like what you mention Master Lim Hyun Su doing for the arts. This is also the reason that I press for traditional Korean weapons rather than those borrowed from other traditions. This is also the reason I press for examining the MYTBTJ rather than studying many of the pop books of the last two decades. I could move into a rant but I think you get my point. Folks like Lim Hyun Su are doing a true service to the Hapkido arts by sticking to their guns and providing sound investigation into what we do and why.
I also agree that a side benefit is that the "wannabees" tend to fall to the side. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing either.
BTW: I thought I saw a blurb on a group which went to Korea recently to train with Master Lim. Were those your (NH) folks?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
......and THIS is the sort of direction I think that the Hapkido arts needed to be going in for years. I rake the leadership of various organizations over the coals because they seem to have allowed the Hapkido arts to devolve into organizational and commercial "***** fights". In my research I follow the KMA after the Yuan Dyn (Mongols) which means that we have traditions that can be documented back some 600 years. When compared with the Japanese and Chinese traditions, I am afraid that the Korean martial traditions could have reached a much higher level of sophistication had we been doing more like what you mention Master Lim Hyun Su doing for the arts. This is also the reason that I press for traditional Korean weapons rather than those borrowed from other traditions. This is also the reason I press for examining the MYTBTJ rather than studying many of the pop books of the last two decades. I could move into a rant but I think you get my point. Folks like Lim Hyun Su are doing a true service to the Hapkido arts by sticking to their guns and providing sound investigation into what we do and why.
I also agree that a side benefit is that the "wannabees" tend to fall to the side. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing either.
BTW: I thought I saw a blurb on a group which went to Korea recently to train with Master Lim. Were those your (NH) folks?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, could have been us new jersey guys, along with one antoehr of the US masters, from maine... that was back in february... todd, have you guys been to daegu recently?glad2bhere said:BTW: I thought I saw a blurb on a group which went to Korea recently to train with Master Lim. Were those your (NH) folks?
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Sorry I didn't get the name of the person who led the trip. The notice was in the latest issue of TKD TIMES. How often do folks go to Korea to train? Whats the usual lead time prepping for such a trip?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
OP
Master Todd Miller
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #18
We will be going again in September. I think Kevin might be making the trip with us as well. Bruce, you are more than welcome to come along. It is quite an experience training at the Jungki Kwan and talking with all the people that trained with the Founder! I have been going since 97 at least once a year. It is kind of addicting! It is a great way to learn about traditional Korean Mudo, maybe the only way!
Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Todd:
Color me "serious". Depending on how some other things play out I'd like to make the September event. Can you contact me off line --- or on-line if you like (maybe people lurking could use the information). Call it "the 10 most important things to know about joining our September event". What I need to know is how things are arranged to be included. Info on $$, passports, innoculations, etc. would be much appreciated. I keep hearing about various people who make the trip quite regularly. As you say, thats about the only way I'll be ab le to get connected with folks who are truely engaged in pursuing their arts.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Color me "serious". Depending on how some other things play out I'd like to make the September event. Can you contact me off line --- or on-line if you like (maybe people lurking could use the information). Call it "the 10 most important things to know about joining our September event". What I need to know is how things are arranged to be included. Info on $$, passports, innoculations, etc. would be much appreciated. I keep hearing about various people who make the trip quite regularly. As you say, thats about the only way I'll be ab le to get connected with folks who are truely engaged in pursuing their arts.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, i can give you a little general info; i'm sure todd can also cover any questions you have about his planned september trip.
passport alone is fine. no visa required unless you stay longer than 90 days. we didn't get any shots. i wouldn't be any more concerned about disease in daegu than i'd be in manhattan or any other major american city.
to get from seoul to daegu, you have to change airports and take a short-hop domestic flight (35 minutes). cost is about $60 one way. works about like the east coast shuttles - one every hour, easy to get a reservation usually for the next flight.
master im referred us to a hotel that was about a 10-minute walk from his dojang. it was quite cheap, especially if you double up (our double rooms were about $65/night - a bit over $30/person). it seemed that there were a fair number of hotels in the vicinity of the dojang.
taxis are dirt-cheap in daegu. makes a lot of sense to use them.
as for the training, again, i'd refer you to todd, but when we were there in february we did 2 sessions a day, about 3 hours each. our instructors arranged ahead of time what we'd work on. they spent most of their time on kuhapdo. there are 3 main instructors, all of whom are jungkikwan masters, all of whom are amazing.
you definitely will not regret going, you won't believe how much you can learn in a short time from these guys, they are that good.
i'd just make one suggestion: be humble. master im himself seems to be a very humble man (although very dignified - i mean humble in a very positive sense). i have heard some unpleasant stories about folks who went into master im's dojangs with attitudes. they don't seem to last long.
hope you can make it. regards, howard
passport alone is fine. no visa required unless you stay longer than 90 days. we didn't get any shots. i wouldn't be any more concerned about disease in daegu than i'd be in manhattan or any other major american city.
to get from seoul to daegu, you have to change airports and take a short-hop domestic flight (35 minutes). cost is about $60 one way. works about like the east coast shuttles - one every hour, easy to get a reservation usually for the next flight.
master im referred us to a hotel that was about a 10-minute walk from his dojang. it was quite cheap, especially if you double up (our double rooms were about $65/night - a bit over $30/person). it seemed that there were a fair number of hotels in the vicinity of the dojang.
taxis are dirt-cheap in daegu. makes a lot of sense to use them.
as for the training, again, i'd refer you to todd, but when we were there in february we did 2 sessions a day, about 3 hours each. our instructors arranged ahead of time what we'd work on. they spent most of their time on kuhapdo. there are 3 main instructors, all of whom are jungkikwan masters, all of whom are amazing.
you definitely will not regret going, you won't believe how much you can learn in a short time from these guys, they are that good.
i'd just make one suggestion: be humble. master im himself seems to be a very humble man (although very dignified - i mean humble in a very positive sense). i have heard some unpleasant stories about folks who went into master im's dojangs with attitudes. they don't seem to last long.
hope you can make it. regards, howard
