Who Tested in Vegas for KKW.

[terryl965]

Michael you have every right to question what it is about the skip Dan, you see so many TKD'ers in the eighties and nineties paid bigtime fee's for proper certification and never recieved them. We had so many crooked Master in those days and they are still around today but people have gotten wiser to there scams. I know alot of good people who should be a 5th or 6th by now and are only a 3rd with proper papers, so in essense they are just buying what they already tested for back in the early years.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael,
I think I understand the way you are seeing this. The standards for the test required those testing to meet the time requirements for any ranks being skipped (except in very "special" cases, which just usually doesn't fly) and also to meet the standards of the rank being tested for.

A chodan or ohdan should indeed be revered. Unfortunately so many people have gotten so used to being promoted by mere means of time and cash that the social standard for a 5th Dan has gone down. Those of us that care what a rank represents cannot do too much to change the general view on the adequacy of rank. It is more important I think that we do not let the views of others change our views and ethics as martial artists.

Michael you have every right to question what it is about the skip Dan, you see so many TKD'ers in the eighties and nineties paid bigtime fee's for proper certification and never recieved them. We had so many crooked Master in those days and they are still around today but people have gotten wiser to there scams. I know alot of good people who should be a 5th or 6th by now and are only a 3rd with proper papers, so in essense they are just buying what they already tested for back in the early years.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

 

[Tames D]

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:



This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Michael, Michael, Michael -
I see you and me come from the same school of thought. But apparently, the times, they are a changing. Theres so much more that I want to say about this subject but I won't. It's the new kinder, gentler me.

 

[troubleenuf]

So you are one of these things:
Happy with your instructor and have a great instructor
Happy wiht your instructor and are blind to who/what he really is
Happy with your instructor but have never seen anything else to compare him to
Happy with your instructor who has you brainwashed.

I HOPE you are the first one. However what you have to open your eyes to is that unfortunately there are just as many poor instructors who take advantage of their students as there are good ones who dont.
By the way, there are MANY students who are brainwashed/blind/ or just plain dont know. I was one at one time. Spent many years with an instructor who took advantage of me/us. Finally woke up and looking back I dont know how I could have been so dumb. Unfortunately there are still many past friends who never woke up and are still feeding him money.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:



This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

 

[Flying Crane]

So you are one of these things:
Happy with your instructor and have a great instructor
Happy wiht your instructor and are blind to who/what he really is
Happy with your instructor but have never seen anything else to compare him to
Happy with your instructor who has you brainwashed.

I HOPE you are the first one. However what you have to open your eyes to is that unfortunately there are just as many poor instructors who take advantage of their students as there are good ones who dont.
By the way, there are MANY students who are brainwashed/blind/ or just plain dont know. I was one at one time. Spent many years with an instructor who took advantage of me/us. Finally woke up and looking back I dont know how I could have been so dumb. Unfortunately there are still many past friends who never woke up and are still feeding him money.

When you open your eyes and realize your instructor is not the person of integrity that you thought he was, or you simply realize you can get better training elsewhere, you leave him and find a better one. And then you train hard.

If your new instructor uses a system of rank, then he ought to award rank as it becomes appropriate according to your training under his guidance. But I would be suspicious of any attempt to hurry you along to "make up for lost time". After all, if you were a 4th dan under the first instructor, and the new instructor offered to skip you to 6th dan, I would think that perhaps the first instructor actually has higher standards, and the second instructor is willing to give rank away cheaply. What's it worth to you? How cheaply did you buy your rank? (that's a retorical question, not one directed at you personally).

If the new instructor offered to skip you over a high level Dan grade like 5th, or any Dan grade at all for that matter, I would question his integrity as well.

You don't shop around for the person/org. willing to give you the most rank in one shot. Hell, if that's all you want, I'll write you out a certificate for 20th Dan. Right after your cheque clears, of course...

 

[rmclain]

A side question, I've never been in this situation...

I saw a few people wrote about "losing time" to bad instructors. I can understand you lost time as applied for ranking. But, did they teach anything useful (martial art skills) during that "lost time?"

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

Robert I will answer the question, yes he tought me alot and it was a validation to know he was teaching everything the right way. In the end it was his poor judgement about getting paperwork in and on time, see once you test you only have a window to get the proper paperwork in before the KKW wll dis-allow the tested for being to long in between test and paperwork being recieved. So if the instructor never actually turned it in and you believe he did and find out 8 eight years later when you submit thepaperwork you have to start at 1st again and wit the period of time to test for second and so on. So you see it is not about the training alot of the time it is about paperwork being filed at the right time before you loose that time.

 

[KGTKD]

First of all I wanted to say, that we had a tester go from from 1st to 5th and received 4th. We called theh USAT and we were told by the Dan Office, that noone that applied for a skip dan got what they asked for, they received one less. That is what we were told. I have not heard anyone confirm otherwise. We have not received our certificates in the mail, just confirmation from the KKW website.

Secondly, the reason some people test for skip dans, is not for entitlement. In our case we tested for a specific dan, passed, and were promised kkw certification. unfortunately, we were scammed. And its not like you can just pick up and leave, unharmed. We truly believed in this person. I can't explain it and do it justice, but when you believe in an instructor wholeheartedly, its a huge disappointment when you find out you were being scammed.

After talking to some wonderful people, we found out that we were not alone. We sent videos of our tests, and received confirmation from a 7th Dan KKW that the test was an accurate depiction of what a 2nd, 3rd, 4th Dan test were supposed to look like. So we were going to have to wait the time necessary for our Korean Dan "catch" up to our "American" Dan. We have this rare opporunity where we can "test" for something we already earned, but now will receive the appropriate certification to be able to certify other's black belts. I hope this wasn't too confusing, I just wanted to clarify our reasoning for skip testing.

Bars on our belts, are just that bars. However in other to certify our student's black belts, we need to continue our "continuing education credits" if you will, by pursuing advancement in our black belt curriculum. We don't need bars to pursue taekwondo knowledge or skill. We do that because we love the sport

 

[IcemanSK]

I've told my story here before, but it fits in this thread, too. I was under a guy for a long time who claimed credentials he didn't have & gave phony certs. in an org. that he wasn't a part of. I discovered this the hard way when I was literally laughed out of a GM's office when I showed him my well-earned, but bogus cert. from this instructor. Did I learn good things from said phony? Yup. But it doesn't make up for being sold a Fauxlex watch. It's not like I could pass on rank to my students in the org. I'd allegedly tested in.

When I connected with my current GM, he accepted my 2nd Dan that I received from said instructor & eventually tested me for 3rd in his org. (I was a 2nd Dan for 19 years) But I wasn't able to skip dan for my 3rd Dan KKW. It wasn't offered & I didn't ask for it. In the early 90's, I sat on a 1st gup board for a guy who is now a 6th Dan in two arts (but that's another Oprah).

I'm not sure that I'd do a skip dan test if it was offered to me. It is very appealing I will admit. In my org. we wear a braid on our left sleeve of our dress doboks. One braid for every 4 years of training. I have more braids on my sleeve than some of 4th dans in my org have years on the planet. They willingly call my "sir" & respect & seek out my opinion on training info. My 1st master (a very good man, not the knucklehead who tested me for 2nd Dan) now teaches golf (not TKD) although he still trains. He was quite impressed that I'm still training & teaching since we last spoke 22 years ago.

All in all, I'm content with where I am in my rank. If someone is able to skip dan, more power to them. Judging from what I've heard about Vegas, they weren't given lightly.

My $.02

 

[dancingalone]

This goes back to Michael's question. Just how common is a 5th dan in taekwondo anyway? Even in the legit orgs like the KKW or the ITF (s)? How many are there and how many new 5th dans and above are awarded each year?

I suspect no one here will have the answer, but I just have a feeling that they're more common than I would like. It's a bit weird IMO to have 2nd and 3rd dans regarded as relatively insignificant ranks.

 

[miguksaram]

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

Was it KKW AND USAT or just USAT that offered the skip dan? USAT was the one holding the test and screening the applicants from what I understand. KKW was just there to conduct the test. So I wonder if USAT offered things that they shouldn't have. Did anyone who applied for a skip dan to 6th make it? Just curious.

 

[miguksaram]

First of all I wanted to say, that we had a tester go from from 1st to 5th and received 4th. We called theh USAT and we were told by the Dan Office, that noone that applied for a skip dan got what they asked for, they received one less.

Ok, so what happens to the money you paid for the extra dan. It is my understanding that you were charged for each testing grade (example you skip 2nd to 4th you pay for a 3rd dan test and 4th dan test). If you were deny the top dan you were testing for what happens to that money? Are you just S.O.L. (Somthing Other than Lucky) or is credited towards future testing? It seems odd that everyone was denied the top dan that they were applying for (if applying for skip dan testing). What was their reasoning behind this?

 

[d1jinx]

Okay, so my simple question trying to get an idea about who tested and how they did has turned into a
"ethical and moral rights and reasons for skip dan".

This sounds like the topic for another post as it doesnt address any of the original questions or topic of the post. Exactly why i keep my self off of forums because its just an avenue for argument.

Having said that....

I will try to address a few things that have been the new focus and topic.
Flying Crane is not the only one who has these questions but i am using his statement as the example. Many have also co-signed his statements and feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d1jinx http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1185187#post1185187
I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

Originally for the record, I would not have done it for 5th.

I AM glad to have done it now. Even if it was only for 5th.

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Why did I "choose" to test at Vegas and not my GM?

Because skip Dan testing at high ranks is "USUALLY" required to be done in person at the KKW.... In Korea.... the test was here in Vegas, my GM who is an 8th Dan KKW gave me permission.
​

Why would I "shop around" for a rank and circumvent my teacher.

I didn’t. Read above.
​

Why would Think 5th Dan isn’t high enough?

I do. Personally I HAVE NEVER cared about rank. My skills and abilities speak for themselves.
​

Why would I want 6th if I don’t care about rank?

Because myself and others have been ripped off many times for many years testing for KKW certificates. And I never cared about a KKW certificate. BUT I also don’t live in the same neighborhood, city, or state where I grew up. Actually I don’t stay in the same place very long. Some of us have careers which take us around the world... like being in the military. We don’t have the luxury of building a reputation for 20+ years in the local community where we teach. A KKW is recognized where ever I end up. Do you know how it felt when you’re a third Dan for years and you show up at a new school where no one knows you and the instructor tells you your not really a third Dan. Here’s a few words to describe it... foolish, anger, robbed, embarrassed, confused....
​

But still why 6th?

Because my Current GM is old. I dont know how long he will be around... maybe not even Long enough to get 6th in 5 more years and 7th is not an option for me. I do not wish to find myself begging or paying some ridiculous amout of money to someone who did show up at Vegas, to test myself for 6th or one of my students for 5th when the time comes. I will never put any of my students into the position that I have found myself in quite a few times. I will not be do that to anyone. If I had gotten 6th, I do not have to rely on others.

​

Well what qualifies you for 6th?

Skills, abilities, lifelong dedication and contribution to the art. requirements set by KKW and my GM permission. and sure... to try to unwrong past wrong doings and prevent them from happening again to anyone I know.
​

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.

 

[d1jinx]

Was it KKW AND USAT or just USAT that offered the skip dan? USAT was the one holding the test and screening the applicants from what I understand. KKW was just there to conduct the test. So I wonder if USAT offered things that they shouldn't have. Did anyone who applied for a skip dan to 6th make it? Just curious.

That is what i hoped to find out on this thread. Not go into a discussion about why i feel i should skip to 6th.

USAT offered. KKW reviewed and approved. They even had us test by group (4-6th) so they (KKW) knew. so why test us if you had no intentions on passing. That is the whole pupose of this question that started the thread. not many answers... thread has gone a different route from intended.

 

[miguksaram]

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.

Welcome to the wonderful world of thread jacking...best get used to it.:redcaptur

 

[d1jinx]

Ok, so what happens to the money you paid for the extra dan. It is my understanding that you were charged for each testing grade (example you skip 2nd to 4th you pay for a 3rd dan test and 4th dan test). If you were deny the top dan you were testing for what happens to that money? Are you just S.O.L. (Somthing Other than Lucky) or is credited towards future testing? It seems odd that everyone was denied the top dan that they were applying for (if applying for skip dan testing). What was their reasoning behind this?

I'm tryng to get those answers. I asked a whole set of questons to USAT. USAT said KKW has those answers and they are trying to find out. We'll see.

 

[miguksaram]

That is what i hoped to find out on this thread. Not go into a discussion about why i feel i should skip to 6th.

USAT offered. KKW reviewed and approved. They even had us test by group (4-6th) so they (KKW) knew. so why test us if you had no intentions on passing. That is the whole pupose of this question that started the thread. not many answers... thread has gone a different route from intended.

I am not questioning your reason to skip dan. Honestly...I don't care. Right or wrong that is your decision. If you feel you deserve it, then go for it. If you are trying to buck the system, then it will just bite you in the *** in the long run. Again...your reasons are your own.

Now subject at hand, I have heard that it was USAT that reviewed and approved not KKW. KKW just tested, not 100% sure on that one though. Also, not to sound like and ***, but maybe those who tested just weren't ready for 6th dan. Not saying this is the reason, just putting it out there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Okay, so my simple question trying to get an idea about who tested and how they did has turned into a
"ethical and moral rights and reasons for skip dan".

This sounds like the topic for another post as it doesnt address any of the original questions or topic of the post. Exactly why i keep my self off of forums because its just an avenue for argument.

Having said that....

I will try to address a few things that have been the new focus and topic.
Flying Crane is not the only one who has these questions but i am using his statement as the example. Many have also co-signed his statements and feelings.



Why did I "choose" to test at Vegas and not my GM?

Because skip Dan testing at high ranks is "USUALLY" required to be done in person at the KKW.... In Korea.... the test was here in Vegas, my GM who is an 8th Dan KKW gave me permission.
​

Why would I "shop around" for a rank and circumvent my teacher.

I didn’t. Read above.
​

Why would Think 5th Dan isn’t high enough?

I do. Personally I HAVE NEVER cared about rank. My skills and abilities speak for themselves.
​

Why would I want 6th if I don’t care about rank?

Because myself and others have been ripped off many times for many years testing for KKW certificates. And I never cared about a KKW certificate. BUT I also don’t live in the same neighborhood, city, or state where I grew up. Actually I don’t stay in the same place very long. Some of us have careers which take us around the world... like being in the military. We don’t have the luxury of building a reputation for 20+ years in the local community where we teach. A KKW is recognized where ever I end up. Do you know how it felt when you’re a third Dan for years and you show up at a new school where no one knows you and the instructor tells you your not really a third Dan. Here’s a few words to describe it... foolish, anger, robbed, embarrassed, confused....
​

But still why 6th?

Because my Current GM is old. I dont know how long he will be around... maybe not even Long enough to get 6th in 5 more years and 7th is not an option for me. I do not wish to find myself begging or paying some ridiculous amout of money to someone who did show up at Vegas, to test myself for 6th or one of my students for 5th when the time comes. I will never put any of my students into the position that I have found myself in quite a few times. I will not be do that to anyone. If I had gotten 6th, I do not have to rely on others.

​

Well what qualifies you for 6th?

Skills, abilities, lifelong dedication and contribution to the art. requirements set by KKW and my GM permission. and sure... to try to unwrong past wrong doings and prevent them from happening again to anyone I know.
​

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.

Thank you for your answer. It sounds like there is a lot of politics and other problems inherent in dealing with large organizations, and that can be magnified when it is more than one org. and one of those is international.

I personally don't approve of the whole idea of skipping dan grades, but that's my opinion. It's not my intention to derail the thread. I've asked my questions and expressed my opinion, and I don't intend to push the subject further.

 

[NPTKD]

Is there really anyway in todays time to really test someone for 4th, 5th, 6th etc.... I mean color belt yes, it the kick is wrong or the self defense is poor or the poomsae looked weak. But at the 4th dan and higher levels?
You can teach anyone to do any poomsae... So that really isn't a judge ( but it is) anyone can learn self defense..buy a DVD or something.
Even sparring, I've color belt that could take black belt ( sport & street)

So what is left... It's not all ablility. It can't be. Time in rank? So someone who is weak in all the area's listed above could just sit back and wait for thier time in rank to come.

Is it that they own thier own school with 100's of students? People would just call them a Mcdojang and not a good instructor.

Is it who you know... My grandmaster is this or My grandmaster is that!

Or is it what group you belong to ( AAU,USAT,KKW,ATA etc..)?

Its hard to define when you think about.Is it all or some of these things?


Or is it just the person? I'm a little or a lot of these things. I'm sure alot of you are the same. Maybe I have a problem, but I think about TKD every minute of every day. I find my self counting things I do as if they were a Poom line, When I out with my wife I look for possible self defense issues. I think about them betterment of my school and my students.

What is it...really what make a higher dan. Is it a certifiacate ( I can make you one) Is it the belt with all those stripes ( I can order you one, silver or gold letters, Korean or english?)

Or for eough money I can test you for six hours, have you spar 20 black belt, break 6 brick, write a essay of 1000 words or more on the topic of what a black belt means to you and do every self defense that you ever learned infront of your family.

Is that a 4th, 5th ,6th or more?

 

[d1jinx]

Now subject at hand, I have heard that it was USAT that reviewed and approved not KKW. KKW just tested, not 100% sure on that one though. Also, not to sound like and ***, but maybe those who tested just weren't ready for 6th dan. Not saying this is the reason, just putting it out there.

As for KKW approval, I will forward the email from USAT about my packaged being approved and KKW having the final approval to ALLOW me to test. Not saying that is what happened but that was supposed to happen.....

And not being ready for 6th.....
I will except that if it is the case. If i wasnt good enough then i wasn't. But how am I supposed to know. How can I know why I didn't make it? I cannot get an answer. Even if the money i paid dissappeared never to be seen or used by me again then oh well. I'm not crying about not passing, or loosing my money. How can I better myself without know how I perform? So to try to answer this I asked the question that started this thread (please reread post #1 and see how far we have came from the subject) One person answered. the rest have just added opinions and here-say. Not my intention or what I wanted to know.