Who knows? Kiap in Taeguk 6
- Thread starter Louise
- Start date
Years ago, there was a kihap at the end as well. My only answer is, every few years they change things in the poomsae to make sure everyone is "up-to-date." Not sure if there is a better answer than that. We've got many knowledgeable folks here. Perhaps they've heard specifics. Where is MSUTKD when we need him?
And welcome to MT, Louise!
And welcome to MT, Louise!
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I'd consider it the first deviation from that "normal" situation. In Taegeuk Pal Jang the kihap is in two places, also different from the first 7 poomsae. In the black belt poomsae they're all over the place.
It's just one of those things - instead of asking why it's suddenly different, the reverse situation is that they kept it simple/easy for the first 5 poomsae and then start to ease you in to more advanced poomsae features (such as being non-symmetrical, kihaps in non-last move places, non-basic joonbi position). There are more poomsae where there isn't just a single kihap at the end than with.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Really? I don't remember there ever being a kihap at the end (first started training in 1986) - how far back are you thinking? Maybe this was a certain kwan's interpretation that I never was taught and that kwan eventually corrected it to Kukkiwon standard?
I'd also argue that it may seem that way, but I'd say considering it from another point of view - every few years corrections filter down so that it may seem there are changes but in fact it's just changes to be correct with the way they do it at the Kukkiwon (and have done for ages).
I've seen my fair set of changes too, I'm not saying it's just you, but from older Kukkiwon documentation/videos the changes I've made are often correcting the way I've been doing them rather than the Kukkiwon changing them (comparing the old Kukkiwon videos and the latest 6 DVD set actually shows fewer technical changes than most people would think).
I'd like to think that they would "correct" things too, but I've been around too long, & there's big $$ in those "corrections". When they change things every few years, everyone needs to become current. Folks go to the KKW for the instructor's course again, the "latest" dvd needs to be purchased, etc. They don't have to change a lot: just enough to make sure everyone is current & checking in with the "home office."
I've heard folks say that the current textbook is a lot like the 1st textbook in 1975. I'd like to look at each of the textbooks to see the changes over the years.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
The funny thing is my master is of the same mindset. He hates making changes and prefers to keep his techniques the same, waiting for the world to change to that again. Actually, that's a bit harsh, he's made quite a few changes recently - but he would openly admit to that mindset.
My grandmaster disagrees and thinks we should be correct and that things have actually been standard for quite a while. He considers his grandmaster to be GGM Kim, Soon-Bae.
I've heard the same, but I also don't have the 1975 book. I've got some promo videos from 1976 and 1980, both have poomsae in them but neither has Taegeuk 6 (trying to see if it had a shout back in those days). The original Kukki-Taekwondo Textbook DVD/Videos don't have it, but I can't find out when they were created. I'm interested to find out now...
As I review my 2006 KKW text book I can't find any Kihap's at all? Our Association text book in 8th edition shows no Kihaps at all on Tae Guk 6 either. However we were always taught since 1973 two kihap's at movement 6 and 13 depending on how you count it with the round kick to the head.
The whole issue of Kihap's needing to be regulated was first to keep conformity in a general class so it does not sound like popcorn going off everyone doing thier own thing.
The KKW is gently trying to eliminate all Kwan influence and get everybody on the same page there is just one Taekwondo. This is hard for some of us who have loyalty for decades to founding Grand Masters. I think for those of us who are interested in maintaining the KKW teaching liscense and want students to be able to compete on an equal footing in national and international competitions using the KKW rules keeping up to date is important.
But my first love of PoomSe has nothing to do with competition it is very personal and as each person matures over the decades it should feed and protect you and you will naturally feel a need to kihap in certain places. There is nothing wrong with this as I was taught by Senior GM's some I know of who practice multiple kihpap's in many places even on thier teaching DVD's.
I think it is a challenging aspect to try to conform 100% to a exact formula provided by KKW related to competion but for me I want my students to experience the personal level also of the mindset of what is happening during the PoomSe related to self defense and the spiritual side that can feed you in later life that is not static or fixed but fluid and at times very adverse.
I see the KKW is offering a very low cost DVD on the Taeguks has anyone reviewed this compared to Dart Fish.
Does anyone know who the current head KKW traveling PoomSe instructor is it was GM Kwan as of April 2010 before the take over of KKW?
The whole issue of Kihap's needing to be regulated was first to keep conformity in a general class so it does not sound like popcorn going off everyone doing thier own thing.
The KKW is gently trying to eliminate all Kwan influence and get everybody on the same page there is just one Taekwondo. This is hard for some of us who have loyalty for decades to founding Grand Masters. I think for those of us who are interested in maintaining the KKW teaching liscense and want students to be able to compete on an equal footing in national and international competitions using the KKW rules keeping up to date is important.
But my first love of PoomSe has nothing to do with competition it is very personal and as each person matures over the decades it should feed and protect you and you will naturally feel a need to kihap in certain places. There is nothing wrong with this as I was taught by Senior GM's some I know of who practice multiple kihpap's in many places even on thier teaching DVD's.
I think it is a challenging aspect to try to conform 100% to a exact formula provided by KKW related to competion but for me I want my students to experience the personal level also of the mindset of what is happening during the PoomSe related to self defense and the spiritual side that can feed you in later life that is not static or fixed but fluid and at times very adverse.
I see the KKW is offering a very low cost DVD on the Taeguks has anyone reviewed this compared to Dart Fish.
Does anyone know who the current head KKW traveling PoomSe instructor is it was GM Kwan as of April 2010 before the take over of KKW?
andyjeffries
Senior Master
They do the old 2 DVD set, Kukki-Taekwondo Text Book Vol 1 and 2. There's also the newer 6 disc set. I have both of those and the Dartfish set. I would say the Kukkiwon set are much better for accuracy (I believe the WTF disavowed the Dartfish set after the Kukkiwon set were released, acknowledging the errors and saying the Kukkiwon set is definitive).
That said, the Dartfish set is a much better technical production (showing incorrect versions along side correct versions and highlighting the differences). If they could give that treatment to the Kukkiwon set, it would be perfect.
If you want any more information let me know.
dortiz
Black Belt
"There is nothing wrong with this as I was taught by Senior GM's "
poppycock!
These so called senior Masters you are talking about tend to be the ones that left Korea and did their own thing. Yes, 30 years ago no internet and snail mail meant they brought the last thing the they learned and were on their own. At the same time some teachers embraced going back to Korea and keeping up with the kukkiwon. Also many teachers today are jumping on board with the technology and communication and now are inplimenting those changes. By the way it was never an issue in Korea because kwan relationship or not they had the information from the Kukkiwon right there.
Saying I will do it the way my teacher did it when global changes came out is not fostering anything but whatever way a technique was done at an exact moment in time. Could be good but could be bad but its certainly not current or part of the organization.
poppycock!
These so called senior Masters you are talking about tend to be the ones that left Korea and did their own thing. Yes, 30 years ago no internet and snail mail meant they brought the last thing the they learned and were on their own. At the same time some teachers embraced going back to Korea and keeping up with the kukkiwon. Also many teachers today are jumping on board with the technology and communication and now are inplimenting those changes. By the way it was never an issue in Korea because kwan relationship or not they had the information from the Kukkiwon right there.
Saying I will do it the way my teacher did it when global changes came out is not fostering anything but whatever way a technique was done at an exact moment in time. Could be good but could be bad but its certainly not current or part of the organization.
Vision is advertising a KKW two disk set of the TaeGeuks for $8 dollars each that is what I am wondering if they are the best current DVD's related to KKW acuracy?
If you are saying that the Dartfish DVD's are just as acurate I would purchase those as well since thier production value is very good. We have a wide screen tv in our Dojang but I also have a HD projector I can blow up to any size I am thinking of setting that up one night. If you have a link for that it would be good.
I use the Dartfish for all the BB forms do you recomend something different at this time.
Still cannot get anyone to tell me if GM Kwan is the head traveling PoomSe instructor for KKW since the change in May? He was great to work with.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Assuming you mean these ones - Two DVD Set - then no, they're out of date. The set you want is the 6 dvd set - Six DVD Set
They aren't as accurate (and the WTF apparently admitted this and recommended the Kukkiwon set) - the production is better, but the Taekwondo accuracy less so.
Yes, I'd recommend the Kukkiwon 6 DVD set (linked from budovideos.com above, but you can probably get it elsewhere).
Sorry, I can't help you there (but wanted to reply to this bit just so you know I'm not missing/ignoring it).
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Assuming we're talking about the same KKW text book (I know there's a very similar book given out on the International Instructors Course at the Kukkiwon), my ISBN 89-7336-750-1. On page 394, move 12:
"Ga" direction, wenbal dollyo-chagi (utterance of "Kihap"), the foot put forth a step and half, body turned rightward, right foot moved toward "Da"(3), oreun apkubi and araemakki.
Cheers,
Andy
andyjeffries
Senior Master
As I wrote in my reply, it's not unusual in the latter patterns to be shouting in many different places and not at the end.
So is your question - why did they pick Taegeuk 5 (instead of 4 or 6 or 7) to change from shouting on the last movement to one at another point? Or is your question - why do we shout on the last movement for the first 4 patterns?
The latter is an easy answer - to keep it simpler for beginners. The other question I don't know the answer to - but my answer would be "why not? Taegeuk 5 is as good a pattern as any other to break students in to the other way".
As I wrote, there are more patterns where the shout is not the last movement than when it is. So it's kept simple for beginners in the early stages of their training and then changed to the more difficult (trying to remember to shout in the middle of a pattern) as they advance.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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From a non-KKW perspective, it's irrelevant where assigned kihaps are made. The individual could utter one on every single movement if he wanted to if he felt the need for the additional focus. No need to get hung up on WHY other than this is the way your organization wants them performed for gradings, competitions, etc.
