Who here carries concealed and how?

[CB Jones]

There is never a time for the cross draw or shoulder holster.

Again in close proximity it is easy for an attacker to grab the arm or gun with leverage and shove the muzzle into your stomach or chest.

Also, both holsters position the gun's grip to be easily grabbed and drawn by an attacker.

Also during a draw the gun has to travel a further distance and has to rotate more before it can be fired. Due to this it is a slower draw.

It is also harder to conceal draws that require your gun hand to cross your body.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When I describe butt first strong side carry, I'm not talking about crossdraw, aka cavalry draw. I'm talking about butt first strong side carry, strong side draw.

 

[CB Jones]

1 I like guns
2 if I carry, I say nothing
3 if I was to carry, it's a left hand holster worn on my right, butt forward. I draw right, palm out, thumb to the rear.
4 when you carry, you have to protect yourself and the weapon
5 every self defense situation is now more likely to become deadly

I would suggest you switch to a right hand holster.

Wearing a left hand holster on the right side is an excellent way to shoot your self in the gut during your draw.

It also positions your gun to be easily taken away from you in a scuffle or pushed into your stomach as you try and draw it.

If you go by the laser rule....you laser your gut every time you draw.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would suggest you switch to a right hand holster.

Wearing a left hand holster on the right side is an excellent way to shoot your self in the gut during your draw.

It also positions your gun to be easily taken away from you in a scuffle or pushed into your stomach as you try and draw it.

I don't cross my body when I draw. And my weapon is further back on my hip. I've experimented a lot, carried a lot. This is how I carry. At 56,not likely to change.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I should also say the chance of a negligent discharge is lower with a da revolver.

 

[CB Jones]

I don't cross my body when I draw. And my weapon is further back on my hip. I've experimented a lot, carried a lot. This is how I carry. At 56,not likely to change.

I understand that, but your muzzle crosses your body as you draw.

It starts with the muzzle pointed behind you and then crosses your body increasing your chance of shooting yourself.

With the gun turned the other way it minimizes your chance of a self inflicted mortal wound.

 

[CB Jones]

Having your gun in a conventional position on your gun side allows for the least amount of movement to get in a firing position.

Once you clear the holster, the gun only has to rotate 90 degrees on one axis to be in a firing position which is more efficient.

With a butt facing forward position the gun must rotate on two axis rotating 90 degrees and 180 degrees which is less efficient.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I describe butt first strong side carry, I'm not talking about crossdraw, aka cavalry draw. I'm talking about butt first strong side carry, strong side draw.

I'm curious why you choose that draw, Bill.

 

[CB Jones]

but make no doubt.....the important thing is you carrying...so let me also commend you for that.

Just giving you a something to think about. This is stuff we teach undercover agents.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm curious why you choose that draw, Bill.

Comfort mostly. Feels natural.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

but make no doubt.....the important thing is you carrying...so let me also commend you for that.

Just giving you a something to think about. This is stuff we teach undercover agents.

I've been around a bit.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I understand that, but your muzzle crosses your body as you draw.

No, it does not.

 

[CB Jones]

No, it does not.

If so that's good.

Most people cross their body with their muzzle from that position which isn't good.

 

[lklawson]

• Statistically speaking most, by an impressive degree, Unintended Discharges happen unrelated to the draw. From what I can tell, unloading for service and cleaning (particularly those that require a trigger press to disassemble) lead the pack followed by "testing the trigger."
  
• Most times that someone Unintended Discharges into their own body during a draw, it is from a hip draw (IWB/OWB). Variations of "Glock Leg" seem to be disproportionately represented.
  
• I can't remember ever seeing any reports of a defensive carrier accidentally shooting an innocent person as a result of a borked draw from a shoulder holster or cross-draw holster. Can you point to any? Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"
• I also can't remember seeing more cases of a Concealed Carry in a defensive encounter having their drawstroke stuffed by the attacker from Shoulder/Cross/Appendix than those being stuffed from any other concealed holster method. Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"

I recently heard an interview with firearms instructor, revolver expert, and author Grant Cunningham in which he described for a wide audience a philosophy which I've been espousing for years: Possible, Plausible, and Likely. Prepare first for what is statistically most likely. Only after you've thoroughly dealt with what is most "likely" concern yourself with "plausible." Don't spent much time worrying about "possible." We have limited resources and cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If so that's good.

Most people cross their body with their muzzle from that position which isn't good.

Almost any drawstroke can be trained so that the motions of the draw do not sweep the body. Even carry methods which start with the muzzle in contact or "pointing at" your body, such as Appendix for instance, can be performed in a way which immediately starts moving away from sweeping the body. All it takes is attention to detail (where are you pointing "right now" during the drawstroke?) and practice, practice, practice. Use a bluegun or quadruple check that your gun is unloaded and the ammo, every last darn cartridge, is in a different room.

Again, getting training on it from a competent and practiced instructor is the best way to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

• Statistically speaking most, by an impressive degree, Unintended Discharges happen unrelated to the draw. From what I can tell, unloading for service and cleaning (particularly those that require a trigger press to disassemble) lead the pack followed by "testing the trigger."
  
• Most times that someone Unintended Discharges into their own body during a draw, it is from a hip draw (IWB/OWB). Variations of "Glock Leg" seem to be disproportionately represented.
  
• I can't remember ever seeing any reports of a defensive carrier accidentally shooting an innocent person as a result of a borked draw from a shoulder holster or cross-draw holster. Can you point to any? Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"
• I also can't remember seeing more cases of a Concealed Carry in a defensive encounter having their drawstroke stuffed by the attacker from Shoulder/Cross/Appendix than those being stuffed from any other concealed holster method. Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"

I recently heard an interview with firearms instructor, revolver expert, and author Grant Cunningham in which he described for a wide audience a philosophy which I've been espousing for years: Possible, Plausible, and Likely. Prepare first for what is statistically most likely. Only after you've thoroughly dealt with what is most "likely" concern yourself with "plausible." Don't spent much time worrying about "possible." We have limited resources and cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If you google for 'police accidental shoot' or words like that, you see a lot of them. Mostly shooting themselves in the foot. That tells me something.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Almost any drawstroke can be trained so that the motions of the draw do not sweep the body. Even carry methods which start with the muzzle in contact or "pointing at" your body, such as Appendix for instance, can be performed in a way which immediately starts moving away from sweeping the body. All it takes is attention to detail (where are you pointing "right now" during the drawstroke?) and practice, practice, practice. Use a bluegun or quadruple check that your gun is unloaded and the ammo, every last darn cartridge, is in a different room.

Again, getting training on it from a competent and practiced instructor is the best way to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Also I keep in mind a couple other things.

1) No such thing as accidental discharge. Negligent discharge, yes. That change in description informs.
2) A double-action handgun is far less likely to be discharged negligently by the act of drawing or routine handling of the weapon.
3) Condition 1 for semi-automatic weapons was (and perhaps still is) appropriate at a certain time, place, and set of circumstances. With the advent of high-quality DA semi-autos, and of course the fact that commonly-carried wheelguns have been DA for many decades...

It's a lot harder to shoot yourself EVEN if you cross your body with your weapon if you carry and use your weapon safely. I do not like pointing the muzzle of any weapon at anything I don't wish to die, including myself. I also realize that guns don't magically discharge themselves; it takes an act - intentional or negligent, to do so. Unless it is malfunctioning, but that too is down to negligence.

One could be rude and suggest that people who manage to shoot themselves 'accidentally' while drawing got what they deserved...

 

[Danny T]

No such thing as accidental discharge. Negligent discharge, yes.

Unless it is malfunctioning, but that too is down to negligence.

^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.

When I was a Marine MP, we cleared our 1911A1 duty weapons in a clearing barrel at the end of shift. Drop the magazine, rack the slide, ensure the chamber is empty, aim into the clearing barrel, pull the trigger.

Once a year or so, some young MP would manage to produce a 'bang' instead of a 'click'. Naturally, this brought everyone running. The unfortunate Jarhead in question would be written up and receive Commanding Officer's Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) unless he or she elected to receive a Court Martial instead. Typically, the punishment would be reduction in rank, restriction to barracks, forfeiture of pay, etc. For a first offense. There was no second offense, because the Marine in question would not be an MP anymore after that.

Why so harsh when the only damage was to the sand in the clearing barrel?

Because negligence. There is no excuse.

 

[lklawson]

^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.

No. Not "for any reason." Malfunction, parts wear, manufacturing defect, or defect in design (Nambu?) are examples which would not be user negligence.

I know that it seems like picking nits, but it's not and it is important to make the distinction. Speaking in absolutes like this actually confuses the issue and makes it harder for new or inexperienced shooters to join the hobby.

Here's an example of what I mean. I heard one woman speaking about her introduction to guns. Part of it was Cooper's safety rules. In particular, his first rule: "All guns are always loaded." You and I know that it is intended to be a 'hard line' reminder to always treat guns as if they are loaded. We know that it can not logically be true. However, because she was completely inexperienced, the thought that "All guns are always loaded," actually made her afraid of them. She couldn't figure out how it could be true but, heck, this expert over here told her it was the number one rule so it must be true. Now, an Ayoob certified trainer herself, she restates the rule as, "Always treat all guns as if they are loaded." It's a subtle difference but it made a big difference to her as a non-initiate.

So I very strongly encourage you to modify your statement, particularly when speaking to others, as "If you discharge a firearm for any reason except design defect or malfunction other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent. As bizarre as it sounds, there's someone, right now, somewhere who believes that you just told them that they are negligently responsible if the magic death machine discharges for any reason. That won't make them more cautious, it makes them more afraid of an inanimate object.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk