Which MA should I take to combine it with Hung Gar?

[Flying Crane]

That's Sharif Bey, a somewhat prominent Kung Fu teacher up against a MMA fighter.

Who? I don't know who that is...

Anyway, is a video from YouTube proof of anything, other than what happened in one encounter on one particular day? Does anyone actually think that is "proof" of anything on a larger scale?

 

[Hanzou]

Who? I don't know who that is...

Anyway, is a video from YouTube proof of anything, other than what happened in one encounter on one particular day? Does anyone actually think that is "proof" of anything on a larger scale?

I wasn't using it to prove anything one way or another, I was simply using it as an example of HG stances and footwork while fighting. Sharif Bey is a sifu out of NYC I believe, and he decades of experience.

 

[Hanzou]

The fight was confusing to me because I couldn't tell if it was a friendly match or a challenge fight.

Either way I hope I never have to eat a "humble pie" that big lol. Here's the same guy.

Yeah, he looked NOTHING like that in that challenge fight.

I think this yet another example of why free sparring is more important towards develop fighting prowess than pre-arranged combat sets and kata.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wasn't using it to prove anything one way or another, I was simply using it as an example of HG stances and footwork while fighting.

Just checking. I find it's often necessary to do so around here.

Sharif Bey is a sifu out of NYC I believe, and he decades of experience.

Hmm. I'm not familiar with him. Meh.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, he looked NOTHING like that in that challenge fight.

I think this yet another example of why free sparring is more important towards develop fighting prowess than pre-arranged combat sets and kata.

I feel the same way about free sparring. I don't think it's possible to gain a deeper understanding without it.

 

[drop bear]

That's fine. You are welcome to feel about it however you wish. And a lot depends on the instructor and how he feels about things. But just because it doesn't meet you approval, isn't going to change it. If you don't like it, or cannot tolerate it, then you should not train in a traditional system with a traditional sifu. There is something for everyone, and it's not all the same.

And of course he has a say in what you do outside of class. He can decide to not teach you, for whatever reason he wants. That goes for pretty much any school and any instructor, regardless.

Well as we are advising OP in this case. I would say dump any school that does that practice. It is a pretty big red flag for a bad school.

Thete are plenty of good schools that dont need to restrict your training out there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well as we are advising OP in this case. I would say dump any school that does that practice. It is a pretty big red flag for a bad school.

Thete are plenty of good schools that dont need to restrict your training out there.

And I would disagree. It depends on context.

 

[drop bear]

And I would disagree. It depends on context.

What context?

 

[Flying Crane]

What context?

What you are getting from the teacher, and whether you feel it is valuable to you. Traditionally, the student-teacher arrangement was a relationship that could become akin to family. For some teachers, this can still be true. The modern business arrangement where a contract for money defined the relationship is fairly new in this context, or at least wasn't the way to get deeper, high quality training in the past. Honestly, it seems a shame to me that many people view this simply in terms of a business relationship: I pay you money, you teach me, and otherwise get out of my life. In my opinion, that cheapens and lessens the experience.

If someone has a big ego and is trying to control students and build an empire, I agree that is a school to avoid. However, in the above described relationship, telling the teacher that you want to train something else sends a message that you do not value what he is teaching you, and you do not value your relationship with him. And it is exponentially worse if you do it on the sly. It sends a message of disrespect. But context matters, all of this only matters where there is a stronger relationship than a mere financial contract.

From what I've seen, a teacher who isn't driven by ego would not try to control the students life. However, he might tell the student, sure go do what you want, study wherever you want, but then I will no longer teach you. It's because learning a comprehensive system requires focus and dedication. Training elsewhere means you don't want to give the focus and dedication needed, so why waste time teaching him, when his attention is elsewhere?

Some teachers won't take a student if they know the student still trains elsewhere, or will only teach the student the very rudimentary aspects until the student makes a formal departure from the previous teacher and declares a desire to be a serious student of the new teacher. With traditional Chines teachers, it takes time and dedication to prove you are dedicated and worth his efforts to teach you well.

A lot of people don't realize this, it is clearly the case with the OP, so I caution him to be honest with his sifu and see what the response is, or he may be burning bridges without realizing it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well as we are advising OP in this case. I would say dump any school that does that practice. It is a pretty big red flag for a bad school.

Thete are plenty of good schools that dont need to restrict your training out there.

It's not always as bad as it sounds. A traditional Sifu isn't going to be money focused when it comes to training students. You can often hear these Sifu trying to decide if someone is worth teaching. In reality it is an honor if a Sifu decides to be your Sifu and teach you what he knows. Our school has a poem that states that we would not teach a person of bad character Jow Ga even if they were to pay 10000 coin. Schools like thistrend to be a second family unit for the student. Is just a traditional way of thinking.

 

[drop bear]

It's not always as bad as it sounds. A traditional Sifu isn't going to be money focused when it comes to training students. You can often hear these Sifu trying to decide if someone is worth teaching. In reality it is an honor if a Sifu decides to be your Sifu and teach you what he knows. Our school has a poem that states that we would not teach a person of bad character Jow Ga even if they were to pay 10000 coin. Schools like thistrend to be a second family unit for the student. Is just a traditional way of thinking.

How much does he charge in comparison to other martial arts?

 

[drop bear]

It's not always as bad as it sounds. A traditional Sifu isn't going to be money focused when it comes to training students. You can often hear these Sifu trying to decide if someone is worth teaching. In reality it is an honor if a Sifu decides to be your Sifu and teach you what he knows. Our school has a poem that states that we would not teach a person of bad character Jow Ga even if they were to pay 10000 coin. Schools like thistrend to be a second family unit for the student. Is just a traditional way of thinking.

I feel it is protecting a brand using unreasonable methods. If your environment is good. If the instruction is sound then it does not matter what other styles the student does.

This desire to separate a student from outside influence is suspicious. The student only has one voice in his head and one set of ideas to work from. This is conveniently the instructors.

This is not good for any martial artist who needs outside influences. To fully understand what they are trying to achieve.

My club is a family. It is not affected by people training elsewhere.

 

[Flying Crane]

I feel it is protecting a brand using unreasonable methods. If your environment is good. If the instruction is sound then it does not matter what other styles the student does.

This desire to separate a student from outside influence is suspicious. The student only has one voice in his head and one set of ideas to work from. This is conveniently the instructors.

This is not good for any martial artist who needs outside influences. To fully understand what they are trying to achieve.

My club is a family. It is not affected by people training elsewhere.

As I've said, you are welcome to feel as you like about it. Part of this is cultural issues, combined with generational issues. Clearly training in a traditional Chinese martial art, with a traditional sifu would be inappropriate for you. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. However, it . isn't all about you, the student. Just as you the student are free to do as you please, the sifu is also free to do as he pleases. It is a two-way street. He can choose to NOT teach you. That is his choice to make. Nothing can force him to teach you, if he decides not to.

The thing is, he may decide to teach you crap, and you don't know it.

So once again, the relationship is important. I suggest that the OP should keep that in mind as he decides what he will do. If he damages the relationship, that will affect the training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How much does he charge in comparison to other martial arts?

I can't remember how much he used to charge, but I do know that it was significantly less than the "belt system" schools. The reason I can't remember is because I was laid off from work and when I told my Sifu and he decided to teach me for free because of my dedication to Jow Ga and the school as well as my character as a person. This was almost 2 years ago so it's been a while since I haven't paid. I think I used to pay around $150 dollars a month for adult Jow Ga Kung Fu, adult Tai Chi, and a kids Jow Ga Kung Fu membership. I used web.archive.org to see what the advertised price back then was and found this.
Adults or Kids Kung Fu
1st Month $60
3 Months $150
Tai Chi Chuan
1st Month $45
3 Months $120
There were no contracts and no testing fees. This is an unbelievable price when you take into consideration of what is being learned even as students we thought it was too low.

I feel it is protecting a brand using unreasonable methods

It may seem like that but it really isn't that way in our system. "Brand Protection" only becomes an issue when someone is being recommended for being a Sifu. The Sifu represents the school and the reputation of Jow Ga so the Jow Ga Associate chooses their Sifu's very carefully. It takes more to become a Sifu than to just past a test. People's character, morale, and judgement are taken into consideration. It took 15 years just to get the recent Sifu's and there's no telling how long it will take before the next lineage of Sifu's are made.

This desire to separate a student from outside influence is suspicious.

We aren't separated from outside influence. But there are real conflicts of training that will make your training worse and not better. What's the point in training in 2 fighting systems where one fighting system teaches the opposite of what the other fighting system teaches? When we get ex-TKD students we have to literally teach them not fight the same way that they did in TKD. In our school almost everything TKD does is not only wrong, but those same things with make their Jow Ga techniques weak. The student literally has to unlearn the things that they were taught by another school as being correct. We spar and talk to students and instructors in other systems all the time so we aren't trying to separate a student from outside influence.

The student only has one voice in his head and one set of ideas to work from. This is conveniently the instructors.

I'm not sure if you have ever taken Kung Fu before, but Kung Fu by itself is confusing enough without having to worry about other teachings from other systems getting into your mind. My Sifu would say this to your statement "If you are a Jow Ga student in a Jow Ga class, then your training and focus should be Jow Ga."

I think if you ask other students in similar traditional teachings, they will say similar to what I'm saying about it not being a "Control thing" or "Branding Reasoning" My Sifu isn't bound by money so if he has decided that he does not want to teach you then he will not teach you. Equally if he sees that a student know longer deserves to be taught, he will decide to stop teaching you. For my school there is no such thing as. I pay you money so you HAVE TO teach me. We had a parent that felt her child should be learning more kung fu and made demands on the Sifu. That pretty much closed the door to that student as my Sifu does not tolerate bad character very well, nor disrespect. If that student were to come back to us then I'm pretty sure he'll have to prove to Sifu why he deserves to be taught Jow Ga. Like Flying crane has pointed out. This is cultural stuff. Just not western culture.

As Flying crane has stated:

Part of this is cultural issues, combined with generational issues. Clearly training in a traditional Chinese martial art, with a traditional sifu would be inappropriate for you.

 

[drop bear]

Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. However, it . isn't all about you, the student. Just as you the student are free to do as you please, the sifu is also free to do as he pleases. It is a two-way street. He can choose to NOT teach you. That is his choice to make. Nothing can force him to teach you, if he decides not to.

The thing is, he may decide to teach you crap, and you don't know it.

So once again, the relationship is important. I suggest that the OP should keep that in mind as he decides what he will do. If he damages the relationship, that will affect the training.

I don't think he should be forced to teach. It is no great loss to the student if he gets booted from a school over a control issue like that.

There are plenty of good schools out there why put up with an unreasonable environment?

Relationships are important and if you are in a school that thinks it decides whether or not you train at a different school. That is not a relationship you should have.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think he should be forced to teach. It is no great loss to the student if he gets booted from a school over a control issue like that.

There are plenty of good schools out there why put up with an unreasonable environment?

Relationships are important and if you are in a school that thinks it decides whether or not you train at a different school. That is not a relationship you should have.

Well, a couple of us have tried to explain it to you. Clearly you don't get it. So you should never train in such a place. That will sadden nobody. You've expressed your feelings repeatedly. What are you trying to accomplish by saying it again? You don't agree with it, ok, go your own way.

 

[drop bear]

Well, a couple of us have tried to explain it to you. Clearly you don't get it. So you should never train in such a place. That will sadden nobody. You've expressed your feelings repeatedly. What are you trying to accomplish by saying it again? You don't agree with it, ok, go your own way.

It is not whether I want to train in that place. I would not feel comfortable with anybody training in an environment that bans you from training any where else.

Especially as it seems because "we are traditional" seems to be the overwhelming explanation.

Hopefully I will at least make someone aware of the pitfalls of training in an environment that takes its control of its students too far. This is a serious breach of the teacher student relationship.

So I am trying to accomplish to be at least one person who says this is not right and it is not normal. So that a prospective student can read this and at least know that it is not just how martial arts is done. That a student does not loose out from leaving his club if he feels there is another club that is a better fit. And the onus is on the instructor to provide an environment the student wants to be in. And not to emotionally blackmail a student with threats of banishment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Especially as it seems because "we are traditional" seems to be the overwhelming explanation.

When Flying Crane says "traditional" Chinese Martial Arts he means traditional in the true sense that is related to the following definition
- a way of thinking, behaving, or doing something that has been used by the people in a particular group, family, society, etc., for a long time
- cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

Many schools martial art schools claim to be a traditional martial art only based on the fighting system. This is a western perspective of "traditional." If you go to a real traditional Chinese martial art school then you are going to get a taste of Chinese culture. There are things that students are allowed to do and are not allowed to do as defined by the traditional Chinese culture for that school. For example, bowing to the shrine when entering and exiting the school, always treating the shrine with great respect, counting in Chinese and answering in Chinese. In my system I cannot address my Sifu's teacher the same way that I address my Sifu. There are cultural acts of etiquette and expected cultural behaviors that Sifu's expect from students. With lion dance we have to perform certain lion dances according to Chinese Culture, so when we do a lion dance for a Chinese wedding it's a traditional lion dance that has to be done a specific way because if it isn't then it will bring misfortune on the couple. It's the same way with a lion dance for Chinese New Year and for a new business that's opening.

The way that the Sifu treats the student if from the position of "Father/Teacher" Fellow students are looked upon and are referred to as brothers and sisters. In a Japanese martial art school rank is determined by Belt Color. In a Chinese martial art school rank is determined how long you have been in the school, with the first student or the student who has been there the longest having the highest rank. Loyalty in a Traditional Chinese Martial art school plays a really important part and is often one of those areas where you can easily offend and not realize it, such as learning martial arts from someone else at the same time you are learning from the Sifu. We had 2 kids who were running around in the school and they bumped the Shrine, nothing broke but it was very disrespectful and I thought they were going die that day.lol. The Sifu gave them a mean look and a piece of his mind, then he had to explain again the value and purpose of the Shrine and why what they did was so bad. But those lectures only came after the Sifu said a prayer to those for who the Shrine is for. So when Flying Crane says traditional he means that it's Traditional Chinese Martial Art in every way. When someone tells you that they are taking a Traditional Chinese Martial Art then you can assume that it's similar to what I've described.

Hopefully I will at least make someone aware of the pitfalls of training in an environment that takes its control of its students too far. This is a serious breach of the teacher student relationship.

So I am trying to accomplish to be at least one person who says this is not right and it is not normal. So that a prospective student can read this and at least know that it is not just how martial arts is done.

You will find that this is very normal for Traditional Chinese Martial Art Schools both in China and outside of China. From your posts I can tell that you have not trained in a Traditional Chinese Martial art school and I know for a fact that if you did, you wouldn't see it from the same perspective that you are currently voicing. I don't know anyone who has taken or is taking a Traditional Chinese Martial in a Traditional Chinese Martial Art School that would describe their relationship with their Sifu as a "emotional blackmail."

 

[Skaw]

Hi again. Sorry for the delay.

While I understand both sides (traditional/modern views), I go with the later. If I play basket I won't understand why the coach shouldn't let me play football with my mates on the week end. If I study french, my teacher has no say on if I can do sewing class on weekends or whatever.

And I won't call it "emotional blackmail" but...it feels that way, and we can talk about it but that's for another thread.

Anyway, long story short, by now I'm going to train by myself the days off while I study other subjects (coding, languages, etc) to have a good base of HG, understand the basics and a bit more, and raise a few sash ranks (meaning years in my school) to show I'm committed (and I've said, know more the system as I don't want to mix it with other styles).

And after that, If I've time and I want to do another MA, I'll ask the question. And depending on how he answers me (not the answer per se) I'll do what I believe is best on my interest.


Happy new year