So belts only came into existance during the time period you mentioned. How did the keep thier tops closed before? I never said these belts were awards.
Sean
Where did belt colour sequence develop from?
- Thread starter ILBUNYON
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Sean
Brother John
Senior Master
no silly.
I didn't say belts weren't invented before then.
I did say
But you said that they'd be 'given'. That's like saying that my daughter would sign up for dance classes and they'd hand her some leotards her first day.
they were just belts.
Getting darker would mean that they became shabby. Okinawans would have changed them out FAR before then.
that's what I meant.
Your Brother
John
Up until Kano Japanese people didn't practice empty-hand martial arts in special clothes. You trained in, well, your clothes. Kano-sensei invented the modern gi. We're told it was at least partly to have clothes that would stand up to the punishment of a Judo workout without getting torn. That's pretty near-feteched. Speculation has it that the basis for the gi was the Japanese fireman's clothing. It was heavy cotton and was soaked in water to protect it from sparks. The particular form of cotton belt was another of his innovations. There had been belts since forever, just like there had been jackets and pants. He modified them to his particular needs.
When Judo took off it became de rigeur to try and be as successful. A version of Kano-sensei's training uniform was adopted by Karate, Aikido and pretty much everyone since.
When Judo took off it became de rigeur to try and be as successful. A version of Kano-sensei's training uniform was adopted by Karate, Aikido and pretty much everyone since.
Brother John
Senior Master
EXACTLY.
The uniform was later elaborated on and the belts color became legion. Kano later relized that too many people put far too much emphasis on the "Black" belt, so he went back to white.
EVEN that was "mythologized" by many who said that "THat represents that Kano-Sensei returned to having the beginners mind."
silly...
Thank you Sir!!
Much appreciated
Your Brother
John
The color system you listed is the one in use by the ITF; many WTF classes use the same colors, but many others use these colors and/or additional colors, including brown, orange and purple - I know this from experience, because I've had transfer students come in with all of those colors in addition to the ones you list, and they've all been WTF students - the meaning of the colors depends on the particular WTF association. Which colors they use seems to depend on then number of ranks they want to have between white and black belts (there are often extra ranks for younger students), how many ranks of red/black belt they want to have. Some use stripes, as the ITF does (stripes on color belts, in the ITF, are the color of the next belt), and some don't.
For Ch'ang H'on/ITF TKD, the number of ranks was what was originally set: Gen. Choi chose to have 10 gup (grade/color) ranks, because 10 is the smallest 2-digit number, and 9 Dan (BB) ranks, because 9 is the largest single-digit number. I'll have to check around to see where the colors come from, although given that Gen. Choi was a BB in Shotokan Karate, it would not surprise me at all to find that the colors came from there, and likely the basic meanings as well. The meanings are as follows:
White: Beginner, lack of knowledge of TKD
Yellow: Ground, to represent the foundation of knowledge of TKD
Green: Plants growing, to represent the growth of knowledge/ability
Blue: The sky, towards which plants grow, to represent the continuing increase in knowledge/ability
Red: Danger, to represent that red belts have the knowledge to kill, but not the control to kill, maim, injure, scare that BBs have.
Black: Knowledge, control, the opposite of white belt
ArmorOfGod
Senior Master
Here is a small mid-excerpt from a very good article at 24fightingchickens.com
It can be found in its entirety at http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/09/09/urban-legends-of-karate-belts/
It can be found in its entirety at http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/09/09/urban-legends-of-karate-belts/
Brother John
Senior Master
OK
Now that was good.
Thanks Armor!
Your Brother
John
Now that was good.
Thanks Armor!
Your Brother
John
- Thread Starter
- #28
everybody's logic and understanding on the belt colour system is very reasonable, without a doubt true for certain Martial Arts styles. i found very similar history of the belt colours origin given from, Touch of Death; Red; tellner; in a website,http://www.kukikan.com/TSOBB.htm.
Info I've gathered from various and sundried places:
Kano Sensei promoted Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita to shodan in 1883, however this was by certificate and not by belt. It wasn't until 1886 that Kano Sensei had yudansha wear black bels (and they were the old 'sash' styles as the Judogi hadn't been invented and Judoka were still training in kimono).
In 1907 Kano Sensei introduced the modern Judogi and obi (only white and black were used).
Sometime around 1930 Kano Sensei introduced the white / red alternating belt to denote high rank (6th, 7th, 8th dan), apparently white was chosen because it represented purity and red was chosen because it represented an intense desire to train and personal sacrifice. (White and Red play important roles in Japanese society and in Judo Kano Sensei had begun the first Red and White tournament in 1884.
Kano Sensei also later created a pure red belt that could be worn as an option for 9th and 10th dans.
I've read that at some point Kano sensei introduced the brown belt between white and black but I can't find confirmation.
Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. Originally this included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts. His reasoning in doing so was that he felt westerners would learn better if their was a more clear deliniation in progress using a defined cirriculum, much as Kano Sensei had begun with the original genesis of the mudansha / yudansha differentiation.
The modern karate gi and obi was first adopted by Funakoshi Sensei (and later pretty much everyone else) when the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required that, the adoption of the kyu/dan system and several other things before they would accept karate as a "real" martial art. Prior to this Okinawan karateka pretty much trained in their streat clothes and other koryo practitioners trained in kimono / hakama and mostly without obi and certainly not one of any colour signifying rank.
Kano Sensei promoted Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita to shodan in 1883, however this was by certificate and not by belt. It wasn't until 1886 that Kano Sensei had yudansha wear black bels (and they were the old 'sash' styles as the Judogi hadn't been invented and Judoka were still training in kimono).
In 1907 Kano Sensei introduced the modern Judogi and obi (only white and black were used).
Sometime around 1930 Kano Sensei introduced the white / red alternating belt to denote high rank (6th, 7th, 8th dan), apparently white was chosen because it represented purity and red was chosen because it represented an intense desire to train and personal sacrifice. (White and Red play important roles in Japanese society and in Judo Kano Sensei had begun the first Red and White tournament in 1884.
Kano Sensei also later created a pure red belt that could be worn as an option for 9th and 10th dans.
I've read that at some point Kano sensei introduced the brown belt between white and black but I can't find confirmation.
Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. Originally this included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts. His reasoning in doing so was that he felt westerners would learn better if their was a more clear deliniation in progress using a defined cirriculum, much as Kano Sensei had begun with the original genesis of the mudansha / yudansha differentiation.
The modern karate gi and obi was first adopted by Funakoshi Sensei (and later pretty much everyone else) when the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required that, the adoption of the kyu/dan system and several other things before they would accept karate as a "real" martial art. Prior to this Okinawan karateka pretty much trained in their streat clothes and other koryo practitioners trained in kimono / hakama and mostly without obi and certainly not one of any colour signifying rank.
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Tag
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
Has anyone heard of using a red belt as the first belt rather than white? The idea being it is to show "danger" to other students, that this student is new with little knowledge or control and to watch out for them (both for your own safety, but also to help the student).
My instructor has said that he has heard schools doing this in the past and he likes the idea, expect for the fact that so many people know always look at red as a high rank, so it would be confusing outside our own dojang.
Any thoughts?
My instructor has said that he has heard schools doing this in the past and he likes the idea, expect for the fact that so many people know always look at red as a high rank, so it would be confusing outside our own dojang.
Any thoughts?
Cirdan
Senior Master
In Wado Ryu it is quite common to use a red belt between white and yellow, however there does not tend to be any symolism attached to the colours. Red signifies "danger" in at least some TKD styles (see Kacey`s post), but it is usually a higher rank just below black belt. From what I hear red it is also used as a "junior black belt" some places, it is used for competition in Judo and there is of course also some styles who use it for very high ranking blacks.
Red belt can indeed be a bit confusing. At the time I used one I also wore my gi and belt when training in Kenjutsu. When I went from red to yellow belt my sword instructor wondered if i had been stripped of rank or something. :uhyeah: But hey, it is just a belt. Never cared much for belt mythology myself (I don`t wash it tough :wink: ) but others seem to like it. And who cares what the people outside the dojo think anyway? :ultracool
10,000 Hit Combo
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I like belts. They holds my pants up. Colors are good too. My favorite color is black. When I earn the right to wear my favorite color I'l be very happy.
No I have never heard of this.
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