When Your Punch gets Stopped.

[mook jong man]

IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality.
Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions.
The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT

The drill is just an exercise , the students have to start somewhere.
Later on when they are better , random punches etc can be added.
One that I like to use is a random punch after Pak Sau and punch .
Student B puts up a boxing guard , student A does a Pak Sau and punch.
Student B on feeling the Pak Sau and punch then executes any type of random punch to student A's head or body.

What do you mean by rolly polly Tan Sau Ian ?

I might also add that they guy in the video has had no problem punching people in the head and knocking them out on numerous occasions.
He was the leader of a crew of bouncers who worked a very tough Pub/ Nightclub in New Zealand.
The man is no stranger to real violence , and if you have seen any Maoris you will know that they are not small people and definitely no push over in a real fight.

 

[Jake104]

IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality.
Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions.
The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT

My main problem with " when your punch gets stop" is if you are out of punching range ( meaning at jab range and not wing chun short bridge range) and you lunge in with a punch you are relying on speed and it can be quite risky. If you can do it then great. But as I get older I'm straying away from techniques that rely on speed and risk. I have done it successfully against boxers in the past and i have ate punches in the process . This is why I say its important to ask, how do you get to that point of contact when doing drills like what was shown in mooks video? Which he answered already.

Personally I prefer to draw in a boxer and ride the jab in. I prefer pak Sao.

It really depends on they energy you get. If its committed energy then I angle. If its in and out energy I wait and pick the right time to come in to bridge. I wait to punch till I'm in the correct punching range for Wing chun to work and I have the line.

All of which require some type of sparring. Sparring Along with chi Sao bridges the gap between drills and fight IMO.

 

[mook jong man]

My main problem with " when your punch gets stop" is if you are out of punching range ( meaning at jab range and not wing chun short bridge range) and you lunge in with a punch you are relying on speed and it can be quite risky. If you can do it then great. But as I get older I'm straying away from techniques that rely on speed and risk. I have done it successfully against boxers in the past and i have ate punches in the process . This is why I say its important to ask, how do you get to that point of contact when doing drills like what was shown in mooks video? Which he answered already. Personally I prefer to draw in a boxer and ride the jab in. I prefer pak Sao. It really depends on they energy you get. If its committed energy then I angle. If its in and out energy I wait and pick the right time to come in to bridge. I wait to punch till I'm in the correct punching range for Wing chun to work and I have the line. All of which require some type of sparring. Sparring Along with chi Sao bridges the gap between drills and fight IMO.

If the opponent throws a jab at you and you intercept it and you are out of your punching range .You must use your "forward force" to stick to his wrist and control him as you quickly move in to your punching range.If you don't have "forward force" and move in quickly he is just going to keep retracting his arm and firing off multiple jabs.If you control his lead arm then you only have to worry about him punching with his other hand.We can't let the opponent dictate when we attack , soon as he shapes up or throws a punch we must bridge the gap and attack immediately.The bottom line is every time we initiate our attack we must also be prepared to intercept any attack the opponent is launching as we are going in.

 

[Jake104]

If the opponent throws a jab at you and you intercept it and you are out of your punching range .You must use your "forward force" to stick to his wrist and control him as you quickly move in to your punching range.If you don't have "forward force" and move in quickly he is just going to keep retracting his arm and firing off multiple jabs.If you control his lead arm then you only have to worry about him punching with his other hand.We can't let the opponent dictate when we attack , soon as he shapes up or throws a punch we must bridge the gap and attack immediately.The bottom line is every time we initiate our attack we must also be prepared to intercept any attack the opponent is launching as we are going in.

I agree 100%. Although I would ad, as I make contact and attack. I'm attacking the opponents balance/ center first with my forward intent. This will hopefully diminish further attacking and clear a striking line. Even if it's only one hand I have control of, kinda like what was shown in your video off a cross hand.

The other thing is I'm choosing when to attack by waiting to time the jab just right. It seem as if you are saying, when the opponent attacks you have to immediately bridge and come in? To me this is letting him control when you come in? I'd rather use foot work to stay just outside of his jab range and use my Pak as gauge to determine who I'm dealing with and when and how to bridge and come in. This way i control when and how i attack. In a sense I'm using chi Sao sensitivity from outside all the way into medium range

What your saying sounds real good and will work against most people. But I have encountered boxers that move a lot and may have far greater reach then me. In this case rushing in is dangerous. You will be rushing into a cross. When I was taking Eskrima that was heavy boxing infuelnced. I was taught a trick that boxer will use. They will take a step back off there jab or your attack, turn there body 90 and throw the cross. So if you rush in, you walk right into there power hand. You see this a lot in the UFC when people rush in. Chuck Lidel was real good at knocking people out as he was going back and as they rushed in. If memory serves me correct I believe he knocked out Babaloo like that. This is why it critical when you get the bridge to take the opponents balance right of the bat.

I suggest training or sparring with boxers . At least to learn the tricks and strategies . I know most on here will say " Wing Chun is for real fighting and boxing is sport" . Well now a days with UFC and MMA being as popular as it is. Everybody you encounter on the street will probably have some sort of boxing type training. And for those who say " in the street I won't have to bridge the gap" . Well I have been in a few fights with tough MF 'ers who weather the initial attack and then regroup and square off to go again. Then what ? You are forced to bridge the gap or run like hell.

 

[Jake104]

I know this guys WC sucks but this is more to show what happens with you walk into a boxers power hand.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwODc0OTk2.html

 

[mook jong man]

I know this guys WC sucks but this is more to show what happens with you walk into a boxers power hand.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwODc0OTk2.html

No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.

Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
As I said before , you have to be ready to intercept anything coming in as you attack or until you get the situation under control.

There is so much wrong in that video I don't know where to start Jake.
The supposed Wing Chun guy looked like he was really trying to mimic the tactics of a boxer which is ridiculous , he would get into range and throw a single punch and move back out again.

But he might have had half a chance of winning if he just would of stayed in there and moved forward with Chain Punching or what we call Continuous Punch.
Several times he was even inside the boxers arms and didn't press the advantage.
He should have overwhelmed him , but instead he moved back out of range allowing the boxer to establish distance again and compose himself.

That was probably the biggest mistake apart from all the hopping around and the attempted crappy low heel kick that lacked any power and seemed to be more of an after thought , if his low kicking is that bad he probably would have been better off with a medium heel kick to the midsection or groin if it was allowed within the rules.

There are definite technical flaws in this example of Wing Chun too Jake.
But at least he is aggressive and once he does get into punching range he stays in there and "starts going to work ".
Although his economy of motion leaves a lot to be desired he has the right idea.

[video=youtube_share;jU8B6eNm2zs]http://youtu.be/jU8B6eNm2zs[/video]

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.

 

[Eric_H]

But that is how the technique works.
It works by pivoting , you are using your whole body mass to move his arm and pull him in.
If you don't pivot and the guy is pretty strong , the chances are you won't be able to move his arm.

I'm not saying don't use the hips to fuel the power of the lop, I agree that if you are a strength disadvantage you'll need that joint power.

What I am saying is that it can be done with a 30-45 degree tilt instead of a 90 degree turn and moving center of gravity. In Moy Yat WC, they would do this with a 45 degree pivot, in HFY we'd do it with a Leung Yi Ma which opens the hip about 30 degrees. There's a time and place for moving to side body, and I didn't see him needing to do it yet, for him it seemed like was more of a preference than driven by condition.

 

[Jake104]

No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.

Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
As I said before , you have to be ready to intercept anything coming in as you attack or until you get the situation under control.

There is so much wrong in that video I don't know where to start Jake.
The supposed Wing Chun guy looked like he was really trying to mimic the tactics of a boxer which is ridiculous , he would get into range and throw a single punch and move back out again.

But he might have had half a chance of winning if he just would of stayed in there and moved forward with Chain Punching or what we call Continuous Punch.
Several times he was even inside the boxers arms and didn't press the advantage.
He should have overwhelmed him , but instead he moved back out of range allowing the boxer to establish distance again and compose himself.

That was probably the biggest mistake apart from all the hopping around and the attempted crappy low heel kick that lacked any power and seemed to be more of an after thought , if his low kicking is that bad he probably would have been better off with a medium heel kick to the midsection or groin if it was allowed within the rules.

There are definite technical flaws in this example of Wing Chun too Jake.
But at least he is aggressive and once he does get into punching range he stays in there and "starts going to work ".
Although his economy of motion leaves a lot to be desired he has the right idea.

[video=youtube_share;jU8B6eNm2zs]http://youtu.be/jU8B6eNm2zs[/video]

Im gonna have to agree to disagree on the coming in thing with you. I prefer mine, your prefer yours. Coke vs Pepsi , less filling vs taste great.

 

[Jake104]

Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.

Chain punches done properly. Meaning chaining strikes together with out realeasing bridge/ contact work. But blitzing in with machine gun punches like you see on YouTube are easy to stop. Haymakers do work althought that's not how I stop em

 

[Jake104]

Chain punches done properly. Meaning chaining strikes together with out realeasing bridge/ contact work. But blitzing in with machine gun punches like you see on YouTube are easy to stop. Haymakers do work althought that's not how I stop em

Actually one of my favorite ways to deal with chain punches is huen choy which i have only seen in seven star mantis, outside my original WC school .Which looks like a hooking circular punch. Circles out and back to center. I take a slight foward/side step usuallY lands on temple or back of the head. I have very high percentage with this punch especially if I double it up and switch level high low or vise versa.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Actually one of my favorite ways to deal with chain punches is huen choy which i have only seen in seven star mantis, outside my original WC school .Which looks like a hooking circular punch. Circles out and back to center. I take a slight foward/side step usuallY lands on temple or back of the head. I have very high percentage with this punch especially if I double it up and switch level high low or vise versa.

I think huen choy and haymaker punch are pretty much the same thing. The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.

 

[mook jong man]

Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.

Chain punching is damn effective in the hands of an aggressive Wing Chun fighter who continues to move forward and go straight through the opponent.
While you are attempting to do your haymaker you must stray off the center line leaving it unguarded and will be taking chain punches to the face.
There is also nothing to stop a Wing Chun guy from interrupting his chain punching and using a short compact deflection to stop a haymaker and then continue punching with the other hand.

The best way to deal with the Wing Chun attack of Chain punching is to use the Wing Chun defence of alternating from Tan Sau to Bong Sau with the lead hand , the hands continue to stay on the centerline guarding the head while also redirecting the punches with minimal movement and effort.

 

[mook jong man]

I'm not saying don't use the hips to fuel the power of the lop, I agree that if you are a strength disadvantage you'll need that joint power.

What I am saying is that it can be done with a 30-45 degree tilt instead of a 90 degree turn and moving center of gravity. In Moy Yat WC, they would do this with a 45 degree pivot, in HFY we'd do it with a Leung Yi Ma which opens the hip about 30 degrees. There's a time and place for moving to side body, and I didn't see him needing to do it yet, for him it seemed like was more of a preference than driven by condition.

Lineage differences I suppose.

Yeah in our lineage we typically only pivot 45 degrees , the main reason is because it pulls the person in , and also amplifies the power of the strike we are pulling them into.

Any pivot he did would only have been 45 degrees not 90 degrees , must have been something up with the camera angle there.
I know the technique and there is no way you would pivot 90 degrees Eric.

 

[Jake104]

I think huen choy and haymaker punch are pretty much the same thing. The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.

When I think of a haymaker I imagine a wide sloppy round swinging punch. The way I do it is similar to this video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4qa6L6y-Iig&feature=youtube_gdata_player

He calls It a cheating hand or something, its at about 2:40 or so. In WC there's hard and soft, so instead of going force against force, sometimes we may need to go around the force. If Its good enough for Gary Lam, it's good enough for me.

 

[Jake104]

No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.

Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
As I said before , you have to be ready to intercept anything coming in as you attack or until you get the situation under control.

There is so much wrong in that video I don't know where to start Jake.
The supposed Wing Chun guy looked like he was really trying to mimic the tactics of a boxer which is ridiculous , he would get into range and throw a single punch and move back out again.

But he might have had half a chance of winning if he just would of stayed in there and moved forward with Chain Punching or what we call Continuous Punch.
Several times he was even inside the boxers arms and didn't press the advantage.
He should have overwhelmed him , but instead he moved back out of range allowing the boxer to establish distance again and compose himself.

That was probably the biggest mistake apart from all the hopping around and the attempted crappy low heel kick that lacked any power and seemed to be more of an after thought , if his low kicking is that bad he probably would have been better off with a medium heel kick to the midsection or groin if it was allowed within the rules.

There are definite technical flaws in this example of Wing Chun too Jake.
But at least he is aggressive and once he does get into punching range he stays in there and "starts going to work ".
Although his economy of motion leaves a lot to be desired he has the right idea.

[video=youtube_share;jU8B6eNm2zs]http://youtu.be/jU8B6eNm2zs[/video]

This is a better watch.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkEUfRBYQI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Oleg]

Hi, folks.

In my humble opinion, the main problem, when we're trying to use bridges, is how to make a bridge in a full-contact combat. When all the movements are very speedy.. I guess, we should use hooks (ch. gou) when the opponent's attacking arm is moving back(accordingly to the sentence "The force precedes the opponent – stop it; the force retreats – help it go"). As I see, Wing Chun is first of all control. We must control our opponents and this is a main principle of Wing Chun (in my opinion). What do you think?

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I'm not fond of the way this guy does lap/tan dar's. He is literally pulling the opponent towards his center. This kind of thing might be okay if your are fully aware and equipped to deal with this. Pulling an opponent into is basically inviting an attack.

It would be much better (in my humble opinion) to either step offline, or go forward (jam the arm).

When this gentlemen is pulling (literally) his opponent to the side, he is taking his hand off the centerline, and therefore exposing more of himself.

However, thanks for the video. It was very educational!

All the best in your training Ya'll.

 

[mook jong man]

I'm not fond of the way this guy does lap/tan dar's. He is literally pulling the opponent towards his center. This kind of thing might be okay if your are fully aware and equipped to deal with this. Pulling an opponent into is basically inviting an attack.

He's pulling him into his outgoing punch , which increases the force of his counter attack and breaks the guys structure at the same time.

When this gentlemen is pulling (literally) his opponent to the side, he is taking his hand off the centerline, and therefore exposing more of himself.

However, thanks for the video. It was very educational!

All the best in your training Ya'll.

No he isn't , it just looks that way because he is pivoting.
The hand that is latching or doing the reverse Tan Sau is still on his own centerline , his hand that is striking is on the opponents centerline.