When Your Punch gets Stopped.

[mook jong man]

This is one of my old instructors showing how to break through the guard and what to do if your punch is stopped using different combinations of Pak Sau , Reverse Tan Sau and Latching.

High level Wing Chun people can get through a guard with just the centerline punch alone , but for us lesser mortals we need a few tricks up our sleeve for when we can't manage to get the punch through.

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[Jake104]

I can't access the video can you post a url link? But without seeing the video I'm going out on limb and say, personally I don't like the idea of punching through someone's guard. Expecially if out of range and In doing so possibly compromising my own structure. I'd rather wait to punch until I have gained controll of the opponents balance and I'am in proper range to launch an attack . Otherwise I believe it's gamble and to risky.

 

[K-man]

Very similar to moves in aikido and karate. It works well and as demonstrated in your video your opponent actually falls forward into the strike.

 

[mook jong man]

I can't access the video can you post a url link? But without seeing the video I'm going out on limb and say, personally I don't like the idea of punching through someone's guard. Expecially if out of range and In doing so possibly compromising my own structure. I'd rather wait to punch until I have gained controll of the opponents balance and I'am in proper range to launch an attack . Otherwise I believe it's gamble and to risky.

Try this one mate.
It's the 3rd video on the page.

http://www.chisauclub.com.au/wc_chisau.html

 

[OzPaul]

Is that the Kiwi who used to beat you up?

 

[Jake104]

I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid, with out It relying on speed and or some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.

 

[mook jong man]

Is that the Kiwi who used to beat you up?

One of them, yeah.

 

[yak sao]

I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid, with out It relying on speed and or some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.

I would say that he is doing the demo against a static partner for sake of illustration.
Keep in mind that the goal of WC is to intercept the opponent's attack by building a bridge.
As the WC fighter moves forward behind his hands to intercept the attack, if there is an obstacle in the way at any point, then you would possibly see something like what was occuring in the video.

 

[Jake104]

That's why im asking because there is a BIG difference if you were to try this against an incoming attack or as an offensive attack. I get that it's static for purpose of demo.

 

[mook jong man]

I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid with out It relying on some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.

Doesn't really matter Jake whether his arm is further out or closer to his face , there are techniques that will take advantage of either situation.
If the arm is out you can use the Chum Kiu Pak Sau which hooks around his wrist and pulls him in.
If the arm is closer to his face the angle of his arm is weaker and able to be collapsed with a regular Pak Sau from Siu Lim Tau which travels in a more forward direction towards his opposite shoulder.

The point of the matter is we want to punch through the centerline but there is an arm on the centerline barring our way.
If both of his hands are off the centerline and leave a gap we can use the double piercing movement from Chum Kiu to go between both his hands and strike through.

You are correct no one is going to leave their arm out there at that angle , but don't forget the same techniques can be used if the other party decides to initiate with their own punch instead of guarding or blocking , they serve a double of function of either breaking through a guard or deflecting an incoming punch , then at the point of interception their arm angle will be quite open as they try to punch through your technique.

But students that are learning the technique have to start somewhere and need a reference point , that particular dude just seemed to have his arm pretty far out.
But as I said , arms further in or further out the techniques pretty much stay the same , its only when the opponent has a more open guard with both hands off the centerline that the technique will change.

We know in the real world that the arms could be close in shielding the head or their hands might even be moving around rapidly in a more dynamic type of guard , but students have to be able to get through the basic ones first
But to answer your question more fully about how you get to that point in the video , well the answer is if he is close enough for you to step in and hit him , you just step in very explosively and hit him.
If he is just outside of normal stepping range as is likely in most encounters you don't step in because he will evade you and counter.

Being just outside of normal stepping range means that he is in perfect range for a low heel kick to his forward leg , your low heel kick will also keep him just outside of his own punching range , and the pain of the kick should also serve as a bit of a distraction as you enter into your punching range.

So you just bridge the gap with your low heel kick and then use the entry techniques shown in the video , the entry techniques can also be done at exactly the same time as you do a low heel kick/ stamp kick , but now we are starting to get into chain kicking territory.

Hope that helped a bit.

 

[Jake104]

Thanks for clarifying. I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..

 

[mook jong man]

That's why im asking because there is a BIG difference if you were to try this against an incoming attack or as an offensive attack. I get that it's static for purpose of demo.

Ok just saw this one , any entry technique in Wing Chun also has to serve the purpose of attack and defence because they are two sides of the same coin , if they don't it is useless and should be thrown out.

Just using the Pak Sau as an example , if a guy shapes up to me and I move in to Pak Sau the lead arm of his guard , there is no guarantee that he won't see me coming and fire off his own jab before my Pak Sau gets there.
But the end result is the same , his wrist still gets Pak Sau'd I'm just having to make contact a bit earlier than I thought I would because now his arm is coming to me .

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for clarifying. I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..

Your exactly right , people have to understand "Bridging the Gap Techniques" .
Wong Sheung Leung used to say "Wait until they are but one step away before you attack" or words to that effect.
I would add to that "Wait until they are in kicking range , then kick em with the appropriate kick for that range and then finish them with your hands".
The key word is reaction time , don't give them any time to react.

 

[Eric_H]

This is one of my old instructors showing how to break through the guard and what to do if your punch is stopped using different combinations of Pak Sau , Reverse Tan Sau and Latching.

High level Wing Chun people can get through a guard with just the centerline punch alone , but for us lesser mortals we need a few tricks up our sleeve for when we can't manage to get the punch through.

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Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't give up his body position so easily.

 

[mook jong man]

Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't give up his body position so easily.

How do you mean Eric?
Can you explain a bit more please?
Are you talking about the pivot that the instructor is doing with the "reverse tan sau".

 

[geezer]

Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't give up his body position so easily.

Eric, I assume you are referring to the body position of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.

The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL

 

[mook jong man]

Eric, I assume you are referring to the body position of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.

The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL

He's not so much committed Geezer , he is just holding his arm up rigidly.
And he is supposed to be playing the part of a Non Wing Chun person so he won't use Wing Chun counters.
He is probably committing his strength more to the front because he is expecting a normal type of Pak Sau that attacks to the front and pushes the arm to the side.

I'm sure in our early days of training we have all been partnered with a behemoth at some stage and tried to Pak Sau his arm and just bounced off because he used his strength to hold his arm in place.

Well these techniques take advantage of that because the instructor is using a Chum Kiu Pak Sau where the fingers hook around the wrist and pull it in , similarly the reverse Tan Sau attacks the top of the arm and drags it down.
They are just using the leverage in different directions.

You have to remember we have 'forward force' on all the time when we make contact ,and what happens when you push on somebodies arm , the natural human reaction is to push back and probably commit a certain percentage of their bodyweight.


Now there is no denying the fact that if the persons arm is nice and tense as you know , then the off balancing effect of these techniques will be a lot more dramatic and can cause whip lash , shoulder injuries etc.


But if the persons arm is relaxed then the off balancing effect will be minimised because there will be less of a connection to their body , but ultimately the aim of the techniques is to create a gap for you to hit through whilst controlling the persons lead arm which is the immediate danger.
So whether they are tensed or relaxed the end result is the same they still get hit.

 

[WingChunIan]

Thanks for clarifying. I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..

IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality.
Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions.
The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT

 

[Eric_H]

Eric, I assume you are referring to the body position of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.

The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL

Actually, although i agree with your assessment of the guy playing the "dummy" in this case, I was referring to the guy demonstrating. The instructor's idea is totally sound about getting the other guy offline, but when he vacates center for that lop/punch to the back of the head, he's moving too much. I know that he can achieve the same effect (putting yourself on the side of the opponent) without moving his own body so far.

Remember as WC guys, we should be looking to make their movements bigger and ours smaller. Even an extra inch is a big statement for a WC guy.

 

[mook jong man]

Actually, although i agree with your assessment of the guy playing the "dummy" in this case, I was referring to the guy demonstrating. The instructor's idea is totally sound about getting the other guy offline, but when he vacates center for that lop/punch to the back of the head, he's moving too much. I know that he can achieve the same effect (putting yourself on the side of the opponent) without moving his own body so far.

Remember as WC guys, we should be looking to make their movements bigger and ours smaller. Even an extra inch is a big statement for a WC guy.

But that is how the technique works.
It works by pivoting , you are using your whole body mass to move his arm and pull him in.
If you don't pivot and the guy is pretty strong , the chances are you won't be able to move his arm.