When Would You Respond?
- Thread starter MJS
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Phoenix44
Master of Arts
When would I respond to a person bleeding on the floor??? Immediately.
Hell, most people won't even speak up when some rude ******* thinks he can jump the line at a convenience store because he's "in a hurry." But they're quick to chime in if another rude ******* (me) tells him to get his *** in line with the rest of us.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
missed this one 'till now...
You never know what you're getting into when you intervene in a fight between two people you don't know. However, in a case like this where a man is attacking a woman with a knife, IMO it's pretty safe to assume that it's a "serious" assault, not just a fight that got out of hand. Hopefully I would have been there in time to shoot the S.O.B. before he stabbed her, or at least before he inflicted as much injury.
Failing that, I'd call 911 and then grab my trauma kit out of my car and do my best to stop bleeding, etc. until EMS arrived.
You never know what you're getting into when you intervene in a fight between two people you don't know. However, in a case like this where a man is attacking a woman with a knife, IMO it's pretty safe to assume that it's a "serious" assault, not just a fight that got out of hand. Hopefully I would have been there in time to shoot the S.O.B. before he stabbed her, or at least before he inflicted as much injury.
Failing that, I'd call 911 and then grab my trauma kit out of my car and do my best to stop bleeding, etc. until EMS arrived.
In many European countries such as France it is illegal not to help someone who needs aid such as this woman, you can and probably will be arrested for not helping her.You can be tried and sentenced if she dies and you do nothing to help her. It means you have to call for the emergency services at the very least. These laws don't mean you have to intervene in dangerous situations they mean you can't ignore what's happening, you call the police and when it's safe to do so render any aid necessary.
Thankfully I have NEVER suffered from that problem...I have once or twice used my body as a block to prevent someone from trying to get in front of me because "they be in a hurry"...
Stepping into an ongoing fight with multiple members is always dangerous. Remember you can do nothing to help the person being attacked is you are out of commission.
Cell phones and 911 come to mind first .
If you feel this person is in danger of his/her life well that is a different story.
As for helping someone down after a fight, I would help as soon as possible and to the extent of my training and knowledge. Depending on how badly they where hurt such things as : stopping bleeding, elevating feet and keeping them from going into shock, keeping them as still as possible, and maybe even cpr, come to mind.
sometime if you are in a car simply blowing the horn can stop a situation but not always. Calling all in the area to aid is also an option but may result in a bigger brawl but its worth a try
Cell phones and 911 come to mind first .
If you feel this person is in danger of his/her life well that is a different story.
As for helping someone down after a fight, I would help as soon as possible and to the extent of my training and knowledge. Depending on how badly they where hurt such things as : stopping bleeding, elevating feet and keeping them from going into shock, keeping them as still as possible, and maybe even cpr, come to mind.
sometime if you are in a car simply blowing the horn can stop a situation but not always. Calling all in the area to aid is also an option but may result in a bigger brawl but its worth a try
Below are two links which describe the effect nicknamed bystander effect. They also link to a few of the multiple experiments that have proved this group effect. I hinted to this effect in the thread the OP is discussing. I think the understanding of this effect, realizing that even we can easily fall into this inaction, and likely have in our past is important and understanding it should be made a part of our training, both martial and first aid. Whether we see a crime or person in distress or we are the person in distress, understanding reasons of the effect, recognizing when we or others are under the influence of this phenomenon, and how to pull ourselves and others into reacting positively can be life saving while relying on the expectation that you are others will automatically help is a mistake that could prove costly in my opinion. Understanding this effect also helps to explain many of the events we hear about when victims are injured and murdered terribly while perhaps dozens see and do nothing.
For more interesting reading view
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A585362?s_id=1
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
Brian King
For more interesting reading view
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A585362?s_id=1
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
Brian King
grydth
Senior Master
These reports always bring on a cascade of emotions for me... cynical anger over yet another public homicide...compassion for some poor woman senselessly dying on a store floor... disgust for the sheeple, bahing and bleating in their mall-pasture....
Then comes the, "If only I were there" part: I'd have beaten the assailant senseless, the crowd ooh'ing and ah'ing over where the old guy got those moves... then applied first aid to save the victim, then taken charge of the scene.....:samurai:
Only... it probably is not true.
If (as usual) I had my family with me, then sorry, but my first duty would be immediately getting them out of harm's way. Not having any real idea how many attackers there are, or if some mass killing is underway, I'd get my family out of there and far away. Would I summon police/ambulance as soon as possible? Sure... but the cold facts are the victim's probably dead by then and the attacker's gotten away. I'm sorry about that, but not sorry enough to let them kill my 8 year old daughter next.
Were I on my own, that would likely be a different matter. Once I did get between 2 giants preparing to square off and told them,"You can't do this here".... and both just truned and walked away. It was surreal. I have, on multiple occasions, put myself between threatening individuals at work and my staff.... but would I do it again? Or just lose my nerve and run away?
I honestly do not know.
Then comes the, "If only I were there" part: I'd have beaten the assailant senseless, the crowd ooh'ing and ah'ing over where the old guy got those moves... then applied first aid to save the victim, then taken charge of the scene.....:samurai:
Only... it probably is not true.
If (as usual) I had my family with me, then sorry, but my first duty would be immediately getting them out of harm's way. Not having any real idea how many attackers there are, or if some mass killing is underway, I'd get my family out of there and far away. Would I summon police/ambulance as soon as possible? Sure... but the cold facts are the victim's probably dead by then and the attacker's gotten away. I'm sorry about that, but not sorry enough to let them kill my 8 year old daughter next.
Were I on my own, that would likely be a different matter. Once I did get between 2 giants preparing to square off and told them,"You can't do this here".... and both just truned and walked away. It was surreal. I have, on multiple occasions, put myself between threatening individuals at work and my staff.... but would I do it again? Or just lose my nerve and run away?
I honestly do not know.
NDNgirl4ever
Green Belt
Same here. I'm and EMT-Basic, and entering paramedic school this fall. If the scene wasn't secure, I'd call the police. If it was secure, and the person had injuries, I'd call for an ambulance and try to give what medical help I could.
Be honest...
You'd stage and wait for the cops to tell you the scene was secure!
OK... Just kidding.
That's actually a good, reasonable response.
*yet again.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294352,00.html
Cops: Tape Shows at Least 10 Witnesses Ignoring Minnesota Woman's Cries for Help During Sexual Assault
Thursday, August 23, 2007
ST. PAUL, Minn. — A security video from an apartment hallway shows at least 10 witnesses ignored a woman's cries for help for more than an hour as a man beat and sexually assaulted her, prosecutors in Minnesota said.
The surveillance video clearly showed men and women looking out their apartment doors or starting to walk down the hallway before retreating as the woman was assaulted for nearly 90 minutes, police spokesman Tom Walsh said.
Police said they responded to a call of drunken behavior and found Somali immigrant Rage Ibrahim, 25, and a woman lying unconscious in the hallway early Tuesday. The woman's clothing had been pulled up and she had fresh scratches on her face and blood on her thigh, according to the criminal complaint.
Ibrahim says he is innocent and that the incident was a misunderstanding, according to Omar Jamal, the executive director of the Somali JusticeAdvocacyCenter, who spoke on Ibrahim's behalf. Ibrahim was charged with several counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct, prosecutors said.
Walsh said police were shocked by the behavior of the bystanders.
"(The video) shows one person looking out of her door probably three times," Walsh said. "It shows another person walking up, observing what's going on, then turning and putting up the hood of his sweatshirt." At one point, the 26-year-old woman knocked on a door, yelling for the occupants to call police. A man inside that apartment told police he did not open the door or look out, but said he did call police — although they have no record of his call, according to court documents.
Minnesota law makes it a petty misdemeanor to not give reasonable help to a person in danger of "grave physical harm." Walsh said it is unlikely police would pursue charges against witnesses in this case because authorities would have to show that witnesses knew the woman was in extreme danger.
Jamal said Ibrahim went into the hallway after the woman because he thought she was too drunk to drive. They struggled over car keys, and "he is saying there was a huge misunderstanding," Jamal said, adding that the police report does not show "the truth of what happened that night."
"He did not rape her," Jamal said.
lessons to be learned,
Brian King
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294352,00.html
Cops: Tape Shows at Least 10 Witnesses Ignoring Minnesota Woman's Cries for Help During Sexual Assault
Thursday, August 23, 2007
ST. PAUL, Minn. — A security video from an apartment hallway shows at least 10 witnesses ignored a woman's cries for help for more than an hour as a man beat and sexually assaulted her, prosecutors in Minnesota said.
The surveillance video clearly showed men and women looking out their apartment doors or starting to walk down the hallway before retreating as the woman was assaulted for nearly 90 minutes, police spokesman Tom Walsh said.
Police said they responded to a call of drunken behavior and found Somali immigrant Rage Ibrahim, 25, and a woman lying unconscious in the hallway early Tuesday. The woman's clothing had been pulled up and she had fresh scratches on her face and blood on her thigh, according to the criminal complaint.
Ibrahim says he is innocent and that the incident was a misunderstanding, according to Omar Jamal, the executive director of the Somali JusticeAdvocacyCenter, who spoke on Ibrahim's behalf. Ibrahim was charged with several counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct, prosecutors said.
Walsh said police were shocked by the behavior of the bystanders.
"(The video) shows one person looking out of her door probably three times," Walsh said. "It shows another person walking up, observing what's going on, then turning and putting up the hood of his sweatshirt." At one point, the 26-year-old woman knocked on a door, yelling for the occupants to call police. A man inside that apartment told police he did not open the door or look out, but said he did call police — although they have no record of his call, according to court documents.
Minnesota law makes it a petty misdemeanor to not give reasonable help to a person in danger of "grave physical harm." Walsh said it is unlikely police would pursue charges against witnesses in this case because authorities would have to show that witnesses knew the woman was in extreme danger.
Jamal said Ibrahim went into the hallway after the woman because he thought she was too drunk to drive. They struggled over car keys, and "he is saying there was a huge misunderstanding," Jamal said, adding that the police report does not show "the truth of what happened that night."
"He did not rape her," Jamal said.
lessons to be learned,
Brian King
Again...
NEVER assume someone else is calling the cops. The minimum you owe your fellow human being in trouble is to make an anonymous call reporting the fight or attack.
Trust me... N. E. Mouse makes plenty of calls to the cops.
NEVER assume someone else is calling the cops. The minimum you owe your fellow human being in trouble is to make an anonymous call reporting the fight or attack.
Trust me... N. E. Mouse makes plenty of calls to the cops.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
I agree with what Kamon Guy said about not knowing who the antagonist is in a 'square go' punch up, unless someone is getting really badly destroyed you're better off out of it some times.
If someone is being attacked however and you have a got a reasonable idea of the situation you've gotta help. Medically, and in the case of that terrible story of the woman above, physically.
That could be your family. I cant believe people ignore things like that. Of all the things in the universe I have seen that frighten me, that is chief amongst them.
If someone is being attacked however and you have a got a reasonable idea of the situation you've gotta help. Medically, and in the case of that terrible story of the woman above, physically.
That could be your family. I cant believe people ignore things like that. Of all the things in the universe I have seen that frighten me, that is chief amongst them.
Balrog
Master of Arts
There it is.
If even one of Kitty Genovese's neighbors had felt like this, no one would know her name today.
This is a great response in the moment do not assume anything. Make the call, render aid if possible and or you are able to.
Well said...
Bump... highlighting threads on use of force.
Guardian
Black Belt
In this case, immediately, it will do me no harm in notifying the authorities and lending whatever comfort I can to this individual no matter the circumstances.
Anyone taking pictures in my view should have the crap kicked out of them right there and then and their camera phone stomped into the ground.
pstarr
Master Black Belt
Yes, I would have intervened. Been there, done that.
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