Okay, I'm going to start being a little blunt here... as Brendan said, there's little real hope that you'll actually take any of this on board, but you really should know where we're coming from....
I am so glad you know everyone who has been exposed to classical martial training...that really does answer everything. I guess those who have trained for decades with us, those in Japan who oversee what we do, those who awarded the Licensure are among those you know who disagree with what we do. I guess Nakamura Sensei, Hoshina Sensei, etc...are either not classically trained (I know Nakamura Sensei is not), or they for some reason have and continue to support what we do but know we are wrong...hmm...
You've missed the point. The point wasn't about anyone in Japan, it was about the way that John Viol presents Japanese martial arts, particularly classical ones... as his representation of them is not historically, culturally, realistically, linguistically, or tactically correct (factually speaking). But there's something you should understand about the Japanese mentality... they don't tend to speak out if someone is doing something incorrect, except in their own teachings. A friend of mine teaches a modern created "Japanese traditional" art... created in the UK in the 60's.... which has a number of very inaccurate and incorrect aspects when compared with actual Japanese arts... he goes to Japan once a year, and trains with a number of very well known and respected teachers in a number of Japanese (and Okinawan) arts... and none of them would say anything against him, as he trains well when he is there. But taking that as acknowledgement that what he is doing is correct would be a mistake.
In other words, it doesn't matter who "supports" John in his training when he visits Japan, if he's not actually teaching what they give him.
You may need to clarify who you're talking about, though... there are quite a number of "Nakamura sensei" in Japan... it's not an overly uncommon surname...
Although I have not been to Japan, my teacher has, and other seniors have. I know the names of my teacher's teachers, his seniors, as well as my seniors who have been training for decades. I also interact with seniors in Japan. I know what family "patronized" the school, etc...our heritage takes great pride in the content...our content and heritage are intertwined so there is no difference...
See, that's the thing... the simple fact that the ryu in question is not being named is a huge red flag... there are only a couple of ryu named on the website, two lines of Toyama Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (but no mention of which line, nor anything that seems to indicate any real licensing in it), and "Yagyu Ryu"... often used as a shortened version of either Yagyu Shingan (by the Araki-do group) or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but here seemingly used as a separate system. Now, within Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, it is used to sometimes refer to the non-Shinkage Ryu elements (Jubei no Jo, shuriken etc)... but, more tellingly, the term "Yagyu Ryu" is a commonly used term in fictional accounts... not an actual, genuine ryu-ha. Hmm....
But, we each will say what we say...and it is ok...train as you wish, and we will continue to perpetuate true classical methods and strategies...
No, you won't. You think you are, but you are, very simply, not. Not if you're following the ideas of John Viol.
Well...I wasn't asking about Ma ai...I am over the conversation. We can simply agree to disagree...you can go along with your assumptions about our training...and that is fine...better actually. I will continue along knowing what I know, and knowing what I know about your training.
You really don't know anything about Hyoho's training... but his resume is far easier to come across than John's... but, for the record, you are conversing with one of the most well credentialed non-Japanese Koryu practitioners and teachers around. He is Menkyo Kaiden in one Ryu, and is a lineage holder (head of the system) in another. His website (hyoho.com) is one of the most informative around, specifically for his ryu... and for many years, he was the voice for Westerners... and his pedigree is very well established. For example, here he is at an embu for Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu with the 11th Generation soke, Iwami Toshio (Hyoho comes out at the end...ps... have you figured out where his screen name comes from yet?):
As for the case for training, taking the provided evidence of John Viol's website, articles, interviews, and so on, well... that's far less established, and certainly far less credible.
Using the following pages (
Seishinkan Original Site Start Page John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden http://www.seishinkan.com/visuals/pdf/BattlegroundSogoArticle01.pdf and
Anshinkan Dojo), there are huge numbers of issues, questions, and unusually vague statements and claims made... not least of all the following:
- Sogobujutsu is presented as a specific martial art, with specific founders and a specific history. This is completely incorrect, as sogobujutsu is simply a categorisation of martial art, specifically Japanese, for systems that cover a wide array of skills. It's like talking about the founder of Kenjutsu... there were many, as many as there are systems that have that categorisation.
- Mentions of the "Tsukikagemusha" of the "Yagyu-clan" working for the Shogun (as the "acknowledged founders of sogobujutsu")... I hardly know where to start with this... for one thing, there was no such thing as the "Tsukikagemusha"... they're fictional. Deal with it. Second, the Yagyu family became teachers to the Tokugawa shoguns, yeah... but teaching a non-sogobujutsu system (Shinkage Ryu)... and the implied timeline has the Yagyu family existing before the Yagyu family existed, creating a non-existent art, and working for a Shogun regime that wasn't going to be there for a few centuries at least... all with a very fantasy-based name of "Moon Shadow Warriors"... seriously? Dude... if you believe this, you're too far gone to listen to anything else... oh, and for the record, the only references to these Tsukikagemusha are all from John Viol himself... nowhere else. They simply didn't (don't) exist. It's fantasy.
- The whole bizarre take on the menkyo ranking system, again littered with romanticised and incorrect understandings of history... it doesn't really have anything to do with the Dan-i ranking system, as claimed... and it's purpose and application is completely misrepresented.
- The idea that "sogobujutsu, the Yagyu clan, the Tsukikagemusha (and so on) are very difficult to research in English... (or even for) native Japanese" is almost laughably bad in it's attempt to explain why this load of fantasy isn't supported by anything historical, or real. I mean... Japan was (and remains) one of the most beaurocratic societies around... writing down everything... so the idea that a major family, supported by the ruling families and dynasties, creating the primary forms of martial arts used by the serious warrior class... who again were the ruling classes... didn't have anything written down because "these are not for the masses" is just weak, false reasoning. All those aspects would have made these topics far, far easier to find information on, not harder...
- The idea that John Viol is the "highest ranked classical weaponry instructor in North America" is again so easily disprovable that it's almost embarrassing the guys' still trying to pass off such a blatant falsehood. No, he's not. For one thing, there's no such thing... you don't get ranked as a "classical weaponry instructor", you get ranked in a particular system... and that rank is not equivalent to any ranking in any other system. For another, if we're going to be talking about Menkyo ranking, there were other instructors who got equivalent ranking in their systems well before John did... so his claim is just either delusional, or fraudulent.
- All of the claims of his activities being covered in Japanese media have no back up at all. His claims of performing a ritual at the "Yagyu Clan grave" is also just bizarre...
- The talk of being an uchi-deshi three times, then not talking about exactly what that was training in, or with who ("I trained primarily in sogobujutsu, with some of my teachers"... er... kay?) is highly suspicious. For one thing, the whole idea of uchi-deshi programs (live-in) are a highly modern concept, not traditional at all, and are based more in Western (English and French) military boarding schools... and are most frequently found in Aikido and occasionally karate schools... not classical systems at all.
Look, I can go on, and on, and on here... but the simple fact is that nothing on his pages indicates much in the way of authentic training, and certainly don't indicate that, if some authentic training has been undertaken, it has been taken on board... instead, John Viol paints a picture of movie fantasy, preying on the lack of education in those who come to him. That worked okay in the 70's, and even the 80's, but even cursory research these days shows just how off all his ideas, and teachings are.
At the end of the day, though, you are free to believe whatever you want... learn from John, believe what he tells you, think that everyone else is doing it wrong... but the simple fact remains that, as soon as you post anything that is incorrect (which, if you base in on what you learn from him, it will be), you will be corrected. It's not personal, but others don't have the necessary education to see just how misleading your information can be... so, as long as you're fine being told you're wrong all the time, go for it.
Going to suggest Japanese might be a bit better at understanding Japanese culture though.
Might I suggest you still haven't learnt who you're talking to?
