When does a style.....

[James Kovacich]

What I am referring to is the formation of a new system. If you really want to get down to all styles are "sub-systems" of another style. For example, Shito-ryu as created by Kenwa Mabuni could be listed as a sub-style of Shorei-ryu and/or Shorin-ryu. General Choi's TKD could be classified a a sub-style of Shotokan, just the same as Wado-ryu and many other styles. My current style could be called both Shorei-ryu and Shorin-ryu just like Shito-ryu, but they are different. I hope this gives you an idea of what I am talking about. Where does the diferentiation occur. When does it stop being one and change into another.

Thanks to everyone for letting me pick your brains apart. I love these touchy subjects.

It would depend on the instructor and and his situation at that particular time and exactly where he is in his art.

Actually you're partially wrong. A sub-system still exists on the family tree. Your example would not include that. It m,ay exist in the lineage being traced back but not on the "family tree."

I would venture to say that the sub-systems you mentioned are new systems and not sub-systems but you know your system and I don't.

 

[searcher]

I am refering to systems in general, not mine alone. I just used it as an example. So where does the distinction come between a system and a sub-system in your opinion?

I guess I should have asked in my original post for what percentage of the base system has to remain before it becomes a new system. I am still hoping this thread will open up everyones minds about the formation of new styles and what it truly takes to form a "new" style.

I have yet to post what I think it takes. Probably because I am still researching it myself. With so many styles already out their I think I would find it rather dificult on my part to break away and form "new" style, IMHO.

 

[achilles]

For all practical purposes - when it gets a new name.

There was this Greek hero, named Thesis. He slew the minotaur, in order to get there he needed a ship. This ship was preserved, but like all things made of wood it slowely decayed. As pieces rotted away they where replaced, over time the whole ship was replaced and there was no pieces of the original left, is it still Thesis ship? If not when did it stop being Thesis' ship?

When at the end of his miserable life, when an aged Theseus was using the Argo as a shanty to sleep in, and a piece of the stern rotted off and fell on him, braining Theseus and putting an end to his pitiful life, it definitely ceased to be his ship

.

Styles are nothing more than mental constructs, and as such have no reality outside of our ability to hold them in our minds. One could argue that no one is really doing any particular style, rather they are doing their interpretation. As far as martial arts politics go, one may develop a new name when their art is technically different, when the techniques are overwhelmingly applied in ways the old art did not advocate or simply a political schism (the many branches of wing chun come to mind which are probably more similar than different). Ultimately, style is more like a brand name. Some products are really different from each other, like a jet plane and a bottle of vodka; Judo and Tae Kwon Do. Others have the same function but are slightly different, like a Big Mac and a Whopper; Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Shoot Wrestling. Some products,and martial arts, only differ in name and such differentiation is more the result of marketing or politics. Styles are the same way, but luckily we can take a jet plane to travel long distances, drink vodka to get drunk or practice Brazillian Jiu Jitsu to get better at controlling positions on the ground. As human beings, we are free to choose that which suits us and are not confined to the way of the whopper, Tae Kwon Do or any one particular, limiting way.

 

[47MartialMan]

As human beings, we are free to choose that which suits us and are not confined to the way of the whopper, Tae Kwon Do or any one particular, limiting way.

"Have It your Way.... (hold the pickles)"...