When a teacher can no longer teach certain techniques...

[Flying Crane]

Interesting point, JT. I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems? Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years? Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits? What says everybody?

This is part of the reason I don't practice capoeira anymore. I still play a bit once in a while, but I don't practice or train.

I used to be able to do some pretty interesting acrobatics in capoeira, but i've gotten rusty and can't anymore. Not any of the really radical stuff, but some pretty cool stuff, nonetheless.

I never really got injured doing this. I just eventually drifted away from it into other things. But when I visit the school, I see SO MANY PEOPLE, especially the senior people who have been there for years, and they all have injured shoulders, or backs, or knees, or ankles, or hips, or elbows, or necks, or whatever. And I believe it is in part the very techs that they practice, as well as perhaps some training habits that I think aren't the best. But this hammers into my head that I really dodged a bullet. I drifted away before any obvious damage had been done.

I had been one of the senior students during my time. I was addicted and trained like a fiend. If I was still doing that now, perhaps I would be one of those people hobbling around, and I'm only 36. While I can't fly like the teenagers, I still consider that young!

I look at it with a really critical eye. Those techs that are really mostly showboating and aren't grounded in really useful application are things I don't want to spend time on. They don't really give you any meaningful skills beyond showboating, and they can hurt you.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is classic, FC. May I use it?

of course!

BTW, the ghost in the machine tells me it's too soon to rep you again as I wanted to. ;(

ditto!

 

[Flying Crane]

Further, having these kicks in my curriculum has always put me in a very sticky philosophical situation. I wanted to bring all of our training and all of our focus back to the forms. These techniques obviously do not fit that mold. The only reason I kept some of these things techniques is so that we at least had something in common with other Tangsoodoin. Now I'm thinking if it wouldn't be better philosophically and health wise to just drop them altogether.

Perhaps we can be an example of a new way of doing tangsoodo?

Ah, well, now you might be in danger of heresy!!

 

[MarkBarlow]

We tend to view the world through our own particular prism. If someone is middle-aged and a martial artist with injuries,the assumption is probably going to be that martial arts are too rough for those of us of a "certain age". But how many 50 year olds do you see burning up the basketball courts against teens or hobbling on a soccer field to challenge the future Beckhams? As a group, we probably hold up better than average.

Most physical activities are going to produce wear and tear on the body. I've got a friend who belongs to a couple of bowling leagues and thanks to 30 plus years of tossing that ball down the lane (and probably poor form) has terrible elbow pain. It doesn't stop him from hitting the lanes every other night but he knows it contributes to his injury.

Obviously, we want to do whatever we can to lessen injury and wear and tear but with a little common sense and a lot of patience, we can all be taking up dojo/dojang/kwoon space when we're little old men & ladies. My Sensei passed away at 87 and trained 4 days a week until he was 85. He only stopped then because of cancer and continued to train his mind until the very end. That's the role model I want to follow.

 

[Kacey]

We tend to view the world through our own particular prism. If someone is middle-aged and a martial artist with injuries,the assumption is probably going to be that martial arts are too rough for those of us of a "certain age". But how many 50 year olds do you see burning up the basketball courts against teens or hobbling on a soccer field to challenge the future Beckhams? As a group, we probably hold up better than average.

This is, quite probably, true - I know that many of my friends who are involved in other, non-MA sports tend to hurt themselves more than the MA'ists I know - and it's because the non-Ma'ists generally don't stretch or warm up; they just jump right in, just as they did when they were younger and more resilient... and then when they hurt themselves, they don't treat it with the full RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation), just anti-inflammatories; no time off... just right back in. Martial artists, as a group, are more aware of the need and method to properly treat injuries (even if most of them come back too soon - I know I do!) than are many other amateur athletes.

Most physical activities are going to produce wear and tear on the body. I've got a friend who belongs to a couple of bowling leagues and thanks to 30 plus years of tossing that ball down the lane (and probably poor form) has terrible elbow pain. It doesn't stop him from hitting the lanes every other night but he knows it contributes to his injury.

True... see above for my take on why that is.

Obviously, we want to do whatever we can to lessen injury and wear and tear but with a little common sense and a lot of patience, we can all be taking up dojo/dojang/kwoon space when we're little old men & ladies. My Sensei passed away at 87 and trained 4 days a week until he was 85. He only stopped then because of cancer and continued to train his mind until the very end. That's the role model I want to follow.

Very true - and a great point!

I also think that many martial artists are in their MA for the long haul, and are willing to make the modifications necessary to train smarter instead of harder as they get older and more prone to injury, so they can continue throughout their lives - something few amateur athletes are taught, as many adult sports activities (from bowling to baseball) involves a group of untrained but enthusiastic people who don't have a coach or other type of instructor to teach them these things - some do, certainly, but I don't think it's as wide-spread as knowledge of injury prevention and treatment, and modification for injury/inability is in the MA's.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

If a technique has an inherent high-risk factor of injury, maybe it should be eliminated from the curriculum altogether. What good is it, if you risk incapacitating yourself every time you do it?

Indeed. Even so, for all the basic TSD kicks, and even for most of the more advanced ones, there's not the kind of risk you seem to be suggesting, as long as the technique is done correctly. That's why it's best to start learning at a young age; you learn to do it correctly during the years when you'll recover more quickly, and when you're older you won't have to risk as much.

The body is an amazing machine; never forget that. Like someone else pointed out, there's inherent risk of injury in any physical activity, especially when that activity is repeated (repetitive stress injuries, as they call them), but it's been proven that if you live an active life, you live longer and better. So are you going to be afraid to see what your body can do, or are you going to use its potential? That is what you must ask yourself.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think I am going to an update on our requirement sheets. I've been doing a little reading around and it seems that the injuries caused by these kicks are very commonplace. Further, they really do seem to because some more negative long term health effects when compared to other techniques. All we have to really do is look at our seniors. They either do not practice these techniques anymore or they have had some pretty major surgeries to correct long term damage. I don't want to do that to people...

 

[terryl965]

I think I am going to an update on our requirement sheets. I've been doing a little reading around and it seems that the injuries caused by these kicks are very commonplace. Further, they really do seem to because some more negative long term health effects when compared to other techniques. All we have to really do is look at our seniors. They either do not practice these techniques anymore or they have had some pretty major surgeries to correct long term damage. I don't want to do that to people...

This maybe the wises move by you upnorth, I hope everything turns out alright.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

There is an old saying that goes;
If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got.

If you want to know what your future level of health and physical condition will be based on your training regiment, look at those who have been doing what you are doing now for the past 30+ years. If you are training with seniors who have suffered training related injuries, and you are now, based on tradition, doing the same exercises that they did, what can you expect to happen to you in years to come?

Ask yourself; what is the definition of “insanity”?
Most people will tell you that the definition of insanity is; doing the same thing over and over again the same way, but expecting different results.

If you are involved with seniors who have suffered injuries by executing techniques in a fashion that is not safe to do, and they are teaching you to do them the same way, and they are telling you that it is O.K. for you to do it this way because you are young and your body will allow you to, take a clue. It isn’t that your body is still young, and they had to change because theirs is old. It is because often times, the injuries that we have grown up with are the kind that happen over time and get progressively worse.

I look at many of the older Chinese practitioners. Do you know what I don’t see when I watch them training? I don’t see the injuries that are so damaging in many Korean and Japanese systems. I have never seen a Chinese martial artist that has had to go through a hip or knee replacement. I have never seen a Chinese practitioner with lower back issues.

Over the years I have changed the way I train and teach my students to be more user friendly and health smart. If you think that a specific technique has been injurious to you, don’t teach it to your students.

Just because a grandmaster incorporated a technique 50+ years ago in his system doesn’t mean that he had the knowledge of physiology and kinesiology to make that decision with the full understanding of the long-term ramifications of the technique’s use in his system.

Just some thought to share…

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

.
I look at many of the older Chinese practitioners. Do you know what I don’t see when I watch them training? I don’t see the injuries that are so damaging in many Korean and Japanese systems. I have never seen a Chinese martial artist that has had to go through a hip or knee replacement. I have never seen a Chinese practitioner with lower back issues.

That's interesting, considering many of the fancy high kicks taught in many styles of wushu.

 

[JWLuiza]

That's interesting, considering many of the fancy high kicks taught in many styles of wushu.

Wushu is the flash. I don't think Master Penfil was talking about them Wushu is like TKD the government created it as a national sport.

 

[Makalakumu]

Absolutely. Wushu is gymnastics with weapons. It's a MA, but its definitely not a combative MA.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Wushu is the flash. I don't think Master Penfil was talking about them Wushu is like TKD the government created it as a national sport.

You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.

 

[MarkBarlow]

You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.

Technically, you're right but since the 1970s, most martial artists equate the term wushu with the Chinese government endorsed and sponsored system. By anyone's definition, the wushu referred to earlier is more flash than substance.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Technically, you're right but since the 1970s, most martial artists equate the term wushu with the Chinese government endorsed and sponsored system. By anyone's definition, the wushu referred to earlier is more flash than substance.

No doubt. But my original point was that Chinese styles still have a penchant for fancy footwork, so it's odd that you don't see them injured more often.

 

[MarkBarlow]

No doubt. But my original point was that Chinese styles still have a penchant for fancy footwork, so it's odd that you don't see them injured more often.

How many older (40+) Chinese folks do you see doing the backflips and acrobatic kicks so popular in demos? What may be good for the gosling ain't necessarily good for the goose or gander.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
When we talk about the fancy kicking techniques of "Wushu", note that the execution of the kicking techniques of the Wushu (and other Chinese systems) use very different hip rotation and body movement.

Another consideration that must be taken into account, and has been proven via medical/scientific research is that the scelital structure of the Asian's differs greatly from that of us westerner's. What may be safe for them to do may not be safe for us. This doesn't mean that there aren't westerners that have natural flexability similar the that of our Asian counterparts, but for the majority of us, we simply don't have the same genetics to support such techniques (long-term).

 

[Flying Crane]

Absolutely. Wushu is gymnastics with weapons. It's a MA, but its definitely not a combative MA.

Correct. It is a performance and competition art based on traditional Chinese martial arts. It is no longer a legitimate fighting art.

For the sake of performance and competition, Modern Wushu incorporates some very extreme acrobatics and such. And those athletes are showing much more frequent injuries.

My Sifu, who is connected to the Modern Wushu world, as well as traditional Chinese fighting arts, says that in the Beijing Wushu Team, which is the world's premier team, the athletes all have wrapped joints and are always limping around. 20 years ago that was not the case. In recent years they have been really pushing the envelope in taking movements further to the extreme. And the results are showing up with much greater frequency of injury. They are just doing stuff that makes no sense and has a very high potential for injury. I personally don't understand why they do this, and when I began training with my sifu, I made it clear that I was only interested in learning traditional martial arts, and I had no interest at all in Modern Wushu. He has always respected my desire.

 

[Flying Crane]

You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.

This is true, but more often than not, when someone refers to "wushu", they really mean "Modern Wushu", which is the performance and competition art created by the Chinese governement beginning in about the 1950s.

Wushu can be used to refer to the traditional arts, but usually it is termed "traditional wushu" to differentiate from Modern Wushu.

Otherwise, "kung-fu" is more common, even tho it is a mis-translation.

 

[theletch1]

Ok, so if the wushu teams are taking heavier injuries earlier and earlier in their careers how will techniques be passed along to the next generation of artists? Sooner or later the Wushu artists will no longer be able to perform the techniques they are attempting to teach and wind up in the same shape as Upnorthkyosa. At that point something will have to be figured out to either A) teach the tech without demo-ing or B) simply stop teaching the technique at all.