http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/sacramento-video-attack-098361
This kind of thing horrifies me.
This kind of thing horrifies me.
What's the matter with us? (unprovoked assault, video)
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Ugh! My 80-something great-aunt suffered something very much like that at a shopping mall. She was either walking or standing outside on the side walk and and a couple of scumbags threw her to the ground.
She technically survived the attack but her health took a nosedive and she passed away 6 months later
She technically survived the attack but her health took a nosedive and she passed away 6 months later
OP
OP
Ugh! My 80-something great-aunt suffered something very much like that at a shopping mall. She was either walking or standing outside on the side walk and and a couple of scumbags threw her to the ground.
She technically survived the attack but her health took a nosedive and she passed away 6 months later
So sorry to hear that. Don't you wish you could get some of these thugs in the dojo for just a few minutes of 'quality time' to show them what tough really looks like?
A dojo implies I would show some control. At least this guy will pay.
Sean
So much so. I can't tell you.
Carol,
Sorry to hear about your aunt, there are no words that can provide comfort or understanding.
In regards to the video shown-
Violence against the weak as a way for groups to socially bond is nothing new. Attacks against the homeless, the mentally disabled, and the elderly and others considered different or weak or breaking with a groups norms is a very real pattern of social violence.
This brings up two different avenues of training issues in my opinion-
One is learning the 'dance' that often these types of groups use prior to the assaults or beat down, learning to recognize different types of violence and there pre cues can help the trained avoid or diffuse this kind attack before it becomes hands on physical. My friend Rory miller's book Meditations on Violence has some good information and perspective on this kind of violence as do some of his other materials. http://chirontraining.com/Site/Home.html The often recommended book the Gift of fear by Gavin de Becker (review here http://mortaine.hubpages.com/hub/The-Gift-of-Fear-Book-Review )also has some useful information and perspective. Grossman's books as well offer some perspectives as does my friend Kris Wilders books http://www.amazon.com/Kris-Wilder/e/B002G9OSTW/ref=ntt_aut_sim_6_2 The point being that there are now many different sources for the lay person to gain a better understanding of this kind of violence and as martial artists and responsible members of our communities and the abundant number of cases of these type of assaults we should prevail ourselves to obtain and work to understand this violence.
Which brings up the second avenue of training-
Dealing with this type of assault. Proper training might give a range of options for the trained and observant martial artist from simply avoiding the situation all together, to verbally diffusing the situation up to using physical force to end the assault. This in itself also then brings up other issues that should be addressed in one's training prior to actually being faced with the situation. For example you drive up to market and feel the attention from a group of people and start noticing pre cues of the possible start of this kind of situation, what should your response be? Change the example to you have an elderly parent or young child or other loved one with you does your response change? Again change it to you are driving up to a market and you see someone like the lady in the video above about to become the victim of this kind of assault, does that alter your response? Change it again so that the victim is a male in the 20's or 30's and appears physically capable but maybe facing multiple tormentors. Better by far to have this type of conversation with yourself and others prior to, during and after training than while the actual situation is unfolding.
Thinking that this type of social violence is the result of cowardliness or weakness on the part of the attackers is a mistake and might lead to underestimating their capabilities or the response of the group, which can be a fatal mistake. The other mistake in estimating capabilities is fantasizing about teaching a lesson (whether in a dojo or back alley) these type of fantasies can lead to overestimation of the fantasizer's own abilities even while providing an outlet for frustration. Better in my opinion to spend the time seeking information and understanding of the different kinds of violent encounters and discovering how you can best deal with those aspects of life, both for yourself and your loved ones and as a part of your community.
Regards
Brian King
Sorry to hear about your aunt, there are no words that can provide comfort or understanding.
In regards to the video shown-
Violence against the weak as a way for groups to socially bond is nothing new. Attacks against the homeless, the mentally disabled, and the elderly and others considered different or weak or breaking with a groups norms is a very real pattern of social violence.
This brings up two different avenues of training issues in my opinion-
One is learning the 'dance' that often these types of groups use prior to the assaults or beat down, learning to recognize different types of violence and there pre cues can help the trained avoid or diffuse this kind attack before it becomes hands on physical. My friend Rory miller's book Meditations on Violence has some good information and perspective on this kind of violence as do some of his other materials. http://chirontraining.com/Site/Home.html The often recommended book the Gift of fear by Gavin de Becker (review here http://mortaine.hubpages.com/hub/The-Gift-of-Fear-Book-Review )also has some useful information and perspective. Grossman's books as well offer some perspectives as does my friend Kris Wilders books http://www.amazon.com/Kris-Wilder/e/B002G9OSTW/ref=ntt_aut_sim_6_2 The point being that there are now many different sources for the lay person to gain a better understanding of this kind of violence and as martial artists and responsible members of our communities and the abundant number of cases of these type of assaults we should prevail ourselves to obtain and work to understand this violence.
Which brings up the second avenue of training-
Dealing with this type of assault. Proper training might give a range of options for the trained and observant martial artist from simply avoiding the situation all together, to verbally diffusing the situation up to using physical force to end the assault. This in itself also then brings up other issues that should be addressed in one's training prior to actually being faced with the situation. For example you drive up to market and feel the attention from a group of people and start noticing pre cues of the possible start of this kind of situation, what should your response be? Change the example to you have an elderly parent or young child or other loved one with you does your response change? Again change it to you are driving up to a market and you see someone like the lady in the video above about to become the victim of this kind of assault, does that alter your response? Change it again so that the victim is a male in the 20's or 30's and appears physically capable but maybe facing multiple tormentors. Better by far to have this type of conversation with yourself and others prior to, during and after training than while the actual situation is unfolding.
Thinking that this type of social violence is the result of cowardliness or weakness on the part of the attackers is a mistake and might lead to underestimating their capabilities or the response of the group, which can be a fatal mistake. The other mistake in estimating capabilities is fantasizing about teaching a lesson (whether in a dojo or back alley) these type of fantasies can lead to overestimation of the fantasizer's own abilities even while providing an outlet for frustration. Better in my opinion to spend the time seeking information and understanding of the different kinds of violent encounters and discovering how you can best deal with those aspects of life, both for yourself and your loved ones and as a part of your community.
Regards
Brian King
Thanks all for your very kind words, its appreciated.
I have a group of relatives in the rural south...they've lived their all their lives, in some cases for generations there. Other family is there, friends are there, many of them have farms there...its their home. The place where my aunt was attacked was the same place my mom took us for last minute Christmas shopping when we visited during the holidays. Often my cousins were in tow, and if we all behaved we got to eat hot dogs for dinner
Unfortunately the nearby town in the area has really fallen on very rough times, employers have gone offshore, and the town is neck deep with just about every kind of social issue imaginable. But, its the only viable commercial district for miles. And its their home.
I guess the worst part about the whole thing is not losing my aunt, its realizing that she might not be the only one to experience a thing like that. I hope I'm wrong.
I have a group of relatives in the rural south...they've lived their all their lives, in some cases for generations there. Other family is there, friends are there, many of them have farms there...its their home. The place where my aunt was attacked was the same place my mom took us for last minute Christmas shopping when we visited during the holidays. Often my cousins were in tow, and if we all behaved we got to eat hot dogs for dinner
Unfortunately the nearby town in the area has really fallen on very rough times, employers have gone offshore, and the town is neck deep with just about every kind of social issue imaginable. But, its the only viable commercial district for miles. And its their home.
I guess the worst part about the whole thing is not losing my aunt, its realizing that she might not be the only one to experience a thing like that. I hope I'm wrong.
Even if it is rhetorical, the question, "What is the matter with us?" in this instance can only I think be answered by stating that we (as a society) have not done enough to deter these people from acting in this way.
If the "us" in the question suggests it is our fault then where does that fault lie?
Is it the failure of the judicial system? Is it the failure to impart lessons by parents, guardians, moral authorities or education providers? Is it the failure of commerce in exploiting additives in food that lead to behavioural disorders, or in the megafarming use of steroids and growth hormones in animal production or the beverage industry promoting the ready availability of aggression-promoting drugs such as alcohol, or the government-funded and/or "illicit" trade in narcotic, stimulant and hallucinogenic substances? Is it the obsessive desire for the "15 minutes of fame" that encourages internet posting gratuitous criminal activity? It could be a hundred other individual factors or combinations of.
Whatever it is, we -if we are responsible, per the question- must not have done enough to deter these people.
If the "us" in the question suggests it is our fault then where does that fault lie?
Is it the failure of the judicial system? Is it the failure to impart lessons by parents, guardians, moral authorities or education providers? Is it the failure of commerce in exploiting additives in food that lead to behavioural disorders, or in the megafarming use of steroids and growth hormones in animal production or the beverage industry promoting the ready availability of aggression-promoting drugs such as alcohol, or the government-funded and/or "illicit" trade in narcotic, stimulant and hallucinogenic substances? Is it the obsessive desire for the "15 minutes of fame" that encourages internet posting gratuitous criminal activity? It could be a hundred other individual factors or combinations of.
Whatever it is, we -if we are responsible, per the question- must not have done enough to deter these people.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Those low life scum need to have their legs broken and their camera phone shoved up their **** sideways.
It could be any or most of what you posted. Bottom line is there is a sub culture of human matter that for the most part belongs in a cage. Fueled by many things, the least of which is a huge lack of any kind of accountability or self discipline. Sadly enough, and what makes it most dangerous, is the fact they have found, gravitate toward and feed into each other.
Their minds function on a whole different level, as they act out some of the most vile of thoughts, as if it were some sort of entertainment for their weak idle minds.
Solution:
Prepare the best you can, because of the economic down turn, many of the services we have taken for granted, like police presence and availability are stressed to the max by cut backs. Couple that with the fact that as a people, we sometimes chose to look the other way for fear of retribution aimed toward ourselves, is a recipe for further disaster.
Agreed!
I wonder to myself all the time, how does a child that is essentially a blank canvas become a loathsome monster that would do these things? I wonder where has the good in them gone? And then I wonder what is the root cause within their world (and in our society) that has lead to their point of failure? And then I wonder about our "modern, enlightened" systems of justice that are in no way victim-centred and spend too much time worrying about the rights of the "poor" perpetrators. And I wonder will it ever get better?
I believe, jenna, that there is good and bad in every one of us, that when cultivated to either extreme, will produce the best of people or the worst. Many of our young are left to their own devices, with little parental guidance, that fall pray to their peers.
Agreed but this sort of thing only makes US feel better and doesn't solve the problem.
Solutions are the way to cut down on threads like these.
Some very good reads there. I highly suggest that anyone seriously interested in SD, reality from fantasy, and the legal side of things, to pick these books up.
I'll assume that you're looking for replies to each of these scenarios, so I'll do that.
Agreed, and as I've said before, I have to wonder...how much of this is actually covered in a class? IMO, given that probably (and this is simply a guess on my part) at least 50%-80% of the people that train do it for a hobby, something to do after work, to lose weight, to meet new people, etc, that they'd probably not be all that interested in learning how to verbally talk their way out of something. Alot of the arts today, deal just with what I call the during phase. When someone is actually grabbing, pushing, kicking, punching, using a weapon, etc. What about the before? Do you know the signs of what to look for, to maybe avoid something before it happens? What about after? Sure, you just destroyed the guy, but now what? What about the legal side and things of that nature? As I said, these are things that are covered in some of those books, but IMO, its important to talk to someone who resides in your state, that knows your laws.
Are we still in our car or did we exit it yet? If still inside, IMO, its wise to scan the area, as you're driving in. If you see something suspect, what can you do to avoid it? How far are you from the entrance to where you're going? Are you in an isolated area? Can you relocate your vehicle somewhere safer?
If you're already out, being aware and not having your head in the clouds in the first thing. Simply being aware and having that confident aura about you, is a big plus and a deterrant as well.
Sure, it changes. Now I have to be concerned about them as well, not just myself. Can they move quick? Can they run? If so, then it may be all the easier should you need to do that. But my mother cant run. I'm not leaving her behind, so now once you've exhausted those options, if you have that option to begin with, you then need to alter your defense. Positioning of them, in relation to you and the badguys is important.
I'm lumping these together, because IMO, they're very similar in nature. For me, my policy is not to, if at all possible, get physically involved in a situation, in which I do not know the people. Way too many times, have we seen a domestic situation, in which the husband beat the crap out of the wife, she's clearly injured, the cop goes to arrest the husband, and what happens? The wife suddenly feels bad for hubby, seems to forget that he beat her, and now attacks the cop. Same thing here....I dont want to walk into something like that. Instead, I'd call the police. Give as much detail as possible...weapons, description of the people, how many people, whats happening, clothing, if they leave, what direction, are they on foot, in a car, if in a car, color/make/model, etc.
As you said, all very important things to consider. IMO, its better to have a plan prior, instead of trying to figure one out during. And yes, things will change during the confrontation, but my point was simply...if this is something thats never been covered, then I'd imagine the defender will have a more difficult time, rather than if this was something routinely worked on.
Thinking that this type of social violence is the result of cowardliness or weakness on the part of the attackers is a mistake and might lead to underestimating their capabilities or the response of the group, which can be a fatal mistake. The other mistake in estimating capabilities is fantasizing about teaching a lesson (whether in a dojo or back alley) these type of fantasies can lead to overestimation of the fantasizer's own abilities even while providing an outlet for frustration. Better in my opinion to spend the time seeking information and understanding of the different kinds of violent encounters and discovering how you can best deal with those aspects of life, both for yourself and your loved ones and as a part of your community.
Regards
Brian King[/QUOTE]
oftheherd1
Senior Master
First, Carol and shesulsa, I am so sorry for your loss. There are no words other than that.
As to the males in the video, there isn't much to say there either, other than express fear and frustration. Sucker punching an unsuspecting victim (as opposed to getting in the first blow when it is obvious you are about to be attacked) is dispicable. Oddly, I sometimes wonder if this isn't some sort of counting coup for them. Cowardly to us, since it anticipates no possibility or defense. But a proof that you are willing to be physical and violate law. What a sad sub-culture that accepts that as any kind of status symbol.
A lot of good comments above, many deserve more "thanks" than they got or I gave. Many good points. Situational awareness is always important to enhance survivability. Unfortunatly, some are less likely to give all the warning signs mentioned above or seen in the video.
As to the males in the video, there isn't much to say there either, other than express fear and frustration. Sucker punching an unsuspecting victim (as opposed to getting in the first blow when it is obvious you are about to be attacked) is dispicable. Oddly, I sometimes wonder if this isn't some sort of counting coup for them. Cowardly to us, since it anticipates no possibility or defense. But a proof that you are willing to be physical and violate law. What a sad sub-culture that accepts that as any kind of status symbol.
A lot of good comments above, many deserve more "thanks" than they got or I gave. Many good points. Situational awareness is always important to enhance survivability. Unfortunatly, some are less likely to give all the warning signs mentioned above or seen in the video.
SensibleManiac
Black Belt
There are two aspects in our society that develops this evil in people.
One is abuse the other is neglect.
Remember these aren't excuses for this behaviour and these morons. It's just where this type of evil, and it's nothing less, comes from. Physical mental, and emotional abuse and/or neglect to put the right teaching and life lessons into them when they are developing.
And with that our society is partially responsible for creating monsters. The other fault lies in parents and caregivers and, the individuals themselves later on in life, but part of it is society.
One is abuse the other is neglect.
Remember these aren't excuses for this behaviour and these morons. It's just where this type of evil, and it's nothing less, comes from. Physical mental, and emotional abuse and/or neglect to put the right teaching and life lessons into them when they are developing.
And with that our society is partially responsible for creating monsters. The other fault lies in parents and caregivers and, the individuals themselves later on in life, but part of it is society.
