What's the difference?

[MMAfighter]

What's the difference between Enshin, Kyokushin, Seido, Ashihara, ect. karate. The full contact ones basically...other than kata and who the founders are, are there certain techniques to certain styles? I thought i'd ask you guys cuz you're all more experienced in this stuff and i'm assuming you'd know more than me. Thanks

 

[twendkata71]

Enshin,Ashihara, and Seido are all offshoots of Kyokushinkai karate. The founders of these styles are former instructors of Kyokushinkai karate. They earned their rank, made a name for themselves and moved on to start their own style/system and organizations. the founder of Seido was sent to New York by Oyama's organization to teach in the early 70's.

What's the difference between Enshin, Kyokushin, Seido, Ashihara, ect. karate. The full contact ones basically...other than kata and who the founders are, are there certain techniques to certain styles? I thought i'd ask you guys cuz you're all more experienced in this stuff and i'm assuming you'd know more than me. Thanks

 

[MMAfighter]

soooo basically other than the name and founder there is no big difference between the styles? Like one doens't focus more on one aspect of fighting than the other or anything?

 

[jim777]

Enshin,Ashihara, and Seido are all offshoots of Kyokushinkai karate. The founders of these styles are former instructors of Kyokushinkai karate. They earned their rank, made a name for themselves and moved on to start their own style/system and organizations. the founder of Seido was sent to New York by Oyama's organization to teach in the early 70's.

The founder of Seido, Tadashi Nakamura, was sent to the US by Oyama Kancho in 1966, not the 70's.

Seido isn't as hard a style, per se, as Kyokushin, until you get to green belt and begin sparring. You don't spar at white belt in Seido, where I believe you do in Kyokushin. You also don't have knockdown fights in Seido. Seido teaches and includes much more Zen than Kyokushin does, which is either a plus or a minus depending on howyou view that. Seido in that regard isn't as hard core a fighting style from the instruction perspective. The founder (Kaicho Nakamura) felt the spirit of karate was being lost in Japanese karate in general and Kyokushin in particular, so Seido is more "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) than Kyokushin. I believe the punches, kicks, stances and kata are very similar if not nearly identical otherwise.
The bottom line was Oyama Kancho probably waited too long to choose a successor and it cost Kyokushin to the point where it splintered. But some of the changes made to Kyokushin in the newer styles (like Seido) do make those styles more accessible to some karateka. At 46, I wouldn't bother starting Kyokushin, but I love Seido (just got back from a class, as a matter of fact). If I was 18 again, I couldn't tell you which I'd rather do. But I love Seido, and the opportunity to train under Kaicho Nakamura at the Honbu. It is far from a cakewalk if I've given you that impression
http://web.seido.com/?q=node/18

jim

 

[MMAfighter]

cool, thanks man

 

[jim777]

No problem.

 

[twendkata71]

I must apologize. My information was off. Thanks for the correction. He was one of Master Williams teachers in the 70's if I am correct.

 

[jim777]

Don't worry about it for a second Old dates are old dates, no can be expected to rememeber them all.
Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura certainly could have been Master Williams' instructor, as he was the top man for Kyokushin in the US from '66 to '76. That was a period during which Kyokushin had enormous growth in the US, from Kaicho himself in an empty dojo in Brooklyn to 100's of schools nationwide, so the likelyhood would have been higher had Master Williams studied in NY. Eventually Kaicho was doing more paperwork keeping up with all the new branches and trying to certify new schools than he was instructing, which probably (in my humble opinion) influenced his larger decision to leave the Kyokushinkai.

I guess I would say that Kyokushin is karate, where Seido is karatedo. I don't think anyone would be offended by that (though that doesn't make it correct, either ).

jim

 

[Miles]

What about the other styles the OP mentioned? Anybody out there have any information on them?

Miles

 

[twendkata71]

Well, I do know than Ninomiya Hanshi created the enshin style of karate, from Kyokushinkai and Ashihara was also in Kyokushinkai before creating his Ashihara karate. I am not sure if they studied other styles in addition to Kyokushinkai before starting their own style/organization. I will look that information up.

What about the other styles the OP mentioned? Anybody out there have any information on them?

Miles

 

[twendkata71]

Ashihara did not keep the kata from Kyokushikai, instead creating his own "Fighting kata".

 

[Martin h]

What's the difference between Enshin, Kyokushin, Seido, Ashihara, ect. karate. The full contact ones basically...other than kata and who the founders are, are there certain techniques to certain styles? I thought i'd ask you guys cuz you're all more experienced in this stuff and i'm assuming you'd know more than me. Thanks

Kyokushin is the base for all the mentioned styles.

Hideyuki Ashihara split off from kyokushin in 1979 to focus on a slightly more circular footwork system. Not something that you cant find in kyokushin aswell, but certanly Ashihara put much more focus on it. Ashihara karate allows a bit more grab&throws than kyokushin (whin nowdays do not allow grabbing for any reason). He also removed the trad katas and created new more "fighting looking" ones. Two of the guys that followed him was Joko Ninomiya and Kazuyoshi Ishii -both famous fighters in kyokushin.

Kazuyoshi Ishii broke with Ashihara 1980, only a few months after the split from kyokushin, and formed seidokaikan. The main difference from kyokushin is that in the finals of seidokakan tournaments, extension rounds are fought with boxing gloves and kickboxing rules. He also founded K-1, which grew out of seidokaikan challenge events.

Joko Ninomiya stayed with Ashihara as the #2 man until 1988, when he broke away and created Enshin. Enshin focus even more on the circular footwork than Ashihara karate, and use the same type of fighting-looking kata (but has not the same ones). There are a lot of grabbing and throwing in enshin competitions. The main Enshin event is the Sabaki challenge in USA.

Tadashi Nakamura left kyokushin in 1976. He founded Seido juku, which has been discusedin several posts in this thread.
The most significant difference from kyokushin is a decreased focus on bareknuckle knockdown competition in favour of more semicontact training.

Other similar styles that is covered in the "etc":

World Oyama karate was created by Shigeru Oyama (no blood relation to Masutatsu Oyama -the founder of kyokushin). Shigeru was a top profile in Kyokushin but left in 1981. World Oyama is very similar to kyokushin. a few katas, a new technique here&there and another order in which they are taught.

Shidokan karate was founded by Yoshiji Soeno, a top kyokushin fighter, in 1981.
Shidokan is very similar to kyokushin in technique and kata, but has added elements from other sources (mostly judo and muaythai). They regularly fight in kickboxing and MMA events, and has a triathlon tournament format where they fight several round with changing rules. First round kyokushin rules, second round muaythai rules, last round MMA rules.


There are differences in technique between the styles (and the different organizations in each style). But it really is not much, and you will find just as much differences between different dojo´s of the same style in different parts of the world.
It is more about the different personal modifications of guys who was once taught the same thing, than about fundemental differences in formal style.
Enshin and Ashihara has throws in the grading system, where Kyokushin world Oyama and seidokaikan has them outside the formal grading system, but that is about it.

 

[jim777]

Awesome post, thanks Martin!

 

[Martin h]

Awesome post, thanks Martin!

Thank you. Just for that bit of praise, here are a few more.

Daido juku was founded in 1981 by Azuma Takashi. Takashi was asked to develope new more realistic rules for kyokushin, but when his new "kudo" rules was ready, Oyama thought than knockdown had spread too much and could not be replaced. So Takashi requested and received permission to leave and found a new style (making it one of few friendly splits in kyokushin history) to use the rules.
Daido juku kudo is a mix of kyokushin and judo -with more recent muaythai and BJJ influences. Daido juku competitions are closer to MMA in feel, but the knockdown karate roots are obvious -look them up at youtube.
Daido juku guys going pro tend to compete in pancrase.

Seiwakai karate was founded by the famous brazilian kyokushin fighter Ademir DaCosta in the late 90ies (im to lazy to check). Apart from fighting trad knockdown karate internally, they are heavily involved in Brazilian MMA and Chute Boxe -with great success as I hear.

Sato juku (actually that is the name of the Org. the style is called Odo karate). Created by the first kyokushin world champion Katsuaki Sato. Their version of knockdown allows for 2 points rewarded for technically perfect techniques that DO NOT contact (while still allowing 1 point for a temporary stun and 3 points/win for knockdown/knockout) -to encourage more technique and less "slugging".

Kyokushin budo kai was founded by Jon Bluming, who was expelled from kyokushin in the late 60ies. He was also a high ranking judoka, and his style is a mix of the two. Basically you start with knockdown karate standup, but allows takedowns/throws and judo newaza.

Byakuren is a offshot from Shorinji kempo. The founder was expelled from shorinji after he entered kyokushin tournaments to test his skills. It is basically shorinji kempo heavily adapted to traditional knockdown competition rules.
While the basics are not from kyokushin, the fighting looks identical and the rules are identical to trad kyokushin knockdown rules.
They work closely with the shinkyokushin faction of kyokushin (which I belong to) and often compete in shinkyokushin tournaments.

Tsu Shin Gen was founded by David Cook (born in the US, living in sweden). He started out in kyokushin, continued in ashihara and has now founded TSG, which is a happy mix of karate, kickboxing and MMA. It is large in eastern europe.

Zendokai is a recent offshot from Daido juku created by Takashi Ozawa in 1999. Basically it is MMA karate. They are involved in a lot of japanese MMA events.
this Zendokai so far exist only in japan and some eastern asian countries. Do NOT confuse it with the australian Zendokai created by Bob Jones -there is no relation and few similarities.

Wajutsu Keishukai is a offshot from daido juku created 1987 with strong judo influences. Although more of a chain of MMA gyms (and one of the most successful MMA gym chains in japan) and not karate nowdays.

Koi karate is a bunch of crazy russians. Originally founded by a kyokushin trained army close combat specialist (who also trained in knife fighting techniques which is now taught in the style) they now fights basically no rules bareknuckle MMA. As part of their grading they have to place (at least 3rd place) in full contact martial art events of other organzations. The higher the grade, the higher the level the tournament.

There are so many more. Some are descended from kyokushin, others are just influenced by it but is not actually related.
Shurenkan, Mumonkai, Toshinkai, Shinaido, Shinbukan, Kenshinkan, World Miura Karate, Gyakushin. The list goes on and on and never seem to end.
Ranging from decent sized international organizations to a mere handful of dojos.


Then there are pure competition organizations like shinkarate (literally "new karate"). A japanese umbrella organization for karate dojos fighting "gloved karate" (a popular amateur sport that is growing fast in japan). Basically a variation of kyokushin knockdown but with boxing gloves and headpunches.
Shinkarate has been a major source of new japanese k-1 fighters recently. Junichi Sawayashiki (who lost big to Peter Aerts in the first round of the 2007 K-1 final) being the most well known.
but Shinkarate is not a style organization, and there are many small independent dojos -each with its own style, attatched to it (most are formerly kyokushin or related, but many are from other lineages entirely).

Shinkarate calls their tournaments (all amateur -there is no pro league. Gloved karate guys going Pro do kickboxing) K-2 to K-5 (yes they have bought the rights to the names from k-1). K2 is the full rules using only boxing gloves. K-3 is the "suited up" version with chest protector, helmet and shin guard. K-4 is youth rules with lighter contact and Helmet (no chest protector or shinguard) and k-5 is the young children version (marshmallow-man protection, lower contact).

There are a few other gloved-karate organizations, but shinkarate is by far the largest.

Then you got the traditional full contact forms of karate.
Irikumi is the traditional fighting from Goju ryu karate from before the days of no/light contact point karate.
Now sadly all but forgotten in most of Goju ryu, Irikumi is continuous fighting using gloves -either full contact or semi contact depending on the purpose of the sparring (test of skill or test of toughness). Very similar to shinkarate K-2 rules. Irikumi was actually what Oyama, the founder of kyokushin did when he was a goju ryu man under the japanese goju ryu legend Gogen Yamagushi.

Bogu kumite is the traditional Okinawan form of fighting used in different variations in many styles.
Basically it is full contact but using a lot of padding (somewhat similar to shinkarate k-3 rules).
Originally they used Kendo armor and helmets, but nowdays they thankfully have more suitable protection.
Usually it is continuous fighting, but some styles stop after each hit to hand out points like in point karate.


Im not going into "american full contact karate". Partly because there are so many different kinds and I dont really know much about them, and partially because I have been less than impressed by what Ive seen of it.

 

[twendkata71]

Martin, this may be a bit off topic, but since you are our Kyokushinkai expert and very well informed I will ask. Why do you think that Master Oyama kept most of the Goju ryu kata in tact in Kyokushinkai, but most of the Shotokan kata that are taught have been changed so much? Was he more influence by his Goju teachers? And one more off topic question. Do you know of anyone that has a copy of the movie "fighting black knights"? I used to have a copy but lost it many years ago.

 

[Martin h]

Martin, this may be a bit off topic, but since you are our Kyokushinkai expert and very well informed I will ask. Why do you think that Master Oyama kept most of the Goju ryu kata in tact in Kyokushinkai, but most of the Shotokan kata that are taught have been changed so much? Was he more influence by his Goju teachers? And one more off topic question. Do you know of anyone that has a copy of the movie "fighting black knights"? I used to have a copy but lost it many years ago.

Yes its a bit offtopic, but...
Oyama trained Shotokan to 2dan, and Goju to 8th dan (given to him by Gogen Yamagushi, before Gogen split of to found Gojukai). In Shotokan he was a gifted but lowranking youngster, In goju he was a important man in the japanese goju organization of the days.
You can see this in kyokushin progress.
Beginners kyokushin training is very shotokan influenced, but the higher you get in the system, the more pronounced the goju influence becomes, just as Oyama started outin shotokan but got his dvanced training in goju.
In my mind he was much more influenced by Goju than by shotokan.

You can buy "fighting black kings" on amazon.com (or atleast amazon.co.uk) Searchg for "strongest karate" among DVDs. Its the same movie -but with the "european" name.

 

[twendkata71]

Didn't Oyama also train with a Goju ryu stylist that was also of Korean heritage? And was that person responsible for introducing Oyama to Yamaguchi?

 

[Martin h]

Didn't Oyama also train with a Goju ryu stylist that was also of Korean heritage? And was that person responsible for introducing Oyama to Yamaguchi?

Yes, Oyama originally and primarily trained Goju under Nei-Chu So (korean birthname: Hyung-ju Cho), who was a high ranking goju practitioner under Gogen in mainland Japan in those days (and who was basically running Goju in Japan while Gogen was abroad because of the war and post war captivity) .
Oyamas friendship with Nei-Chu So was a major reason for his switch from Shotokan to Goju.
So I think it is safe to say that he introduced Oyama to Gogen.

 

[twendkata71]

I thought that was correct, but I could not remember the teachers name. Thanks.