What's a good technique?

[Kung Fu Wang]

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage. As long as your speed and timing are there, even if your "ability" is not there yet, that technique should still work for you. After a teacher teaches that technique to a new student, if the new student uses it in sparring against his teacher, it should work on that teacher.

There are not that many techniques that can fall into this category. A single leg, head lock, hip throw, ... used by a beginner to against his teacher may be hard to work until the student has developed "ability".

But to use a

- circular punch to deflect a straight punch.
- straight punch to deflect a circular punch.

can work easily for the beginners even on day 1.

Do you know any technique that may fall into this category?

 

[Flying Crane]

…can work easily for the beginners even on day 1.

I find myself skeptical of such claims, especially if the student is a genuine beginner, coming from a background with little or no violence and no training. Sure, anyone “can” throw a punch for example, but a quality, efficient punch is something else. It takes time to develop such a thing. I do not believe it is a reliable statement to claim that a beginner can use it on day one and I remain skeptical when I see claims that a teacher teaches “practical, useful techniques that can be effectively used from the first day…”. If the metric is that the student can use it quickly against an experienced person like their own teacher, then I am even more skeptical.

I have watched beginners struggle with the mechanics of an efficient punch. It takes some time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My student can use circular punches to "deflect" my jab/cross and my jab/cross can't go through.

As long as my student has speed and timing, his "ability" is not important here. The reason is simple. It doesn't take much force to deflect a punch. Even a 4 oz force can change a 1000 lb vector force.

https://i.postimg.cc/vBkx8VSF/Keegan-double-spears.gif

 

[Dirty Dog]

My student can use circular punches to "deflect" my jab/cross and my jab/cross can't go through.

As long as my student has speed and timing, his "ability" is not important here. The reason is simple. It doesn't take much force to deflect a punch. Even a 4 oz force can change a 1000 lb vector force.

https://i.postimg.cc/vBkx8VSF/Keegan-double-spears.gif

Speed and timing is part of "ability"...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Speed and timing is part of "ability"...

Some MA systems define ability as strength/power. Some MA systems may include speed as part of the ability. Since timing depends on 2 persons reaction, it may be hard to include it as part of the ability. IMO, the ability is what you develop at home by yourself without training partner.

When I found out that my students could deflect my jab/cross with their circular punches, I wished my teacher could teach me the circular punch on the 1st day of my training. Today, that's the 1st technique that I will teach to my new students.

When you are not afraid of jab/cross, you will have more courage, everything will then move toward your advantage.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

It’s like circular parries but with punches

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It’s like circular parries but with punches

It's both defense and offense. After you have knocked down your opponent's punches, yu can jump in and attack. What I like about this strategy is whenever your opponent punches at you, it's also a good chance for you to jump in and attack back. I like that kind of spirit very much.

IMO, this is a good example that the striking art and the grappling art are truly integrated.

https://i.postimg.cc/rFsTqH24/my-double-hooks-cut.gif

 

[Flying Crane]

My student can use circular punches to "deflect" my jab/cross and my jab/cross can't go through.

So wait a minute. You are claiming that your student, on his/her first day as a complete beginner, was able to use this against you for real? You were not being overly cooperative?

I can understand that within a cooperative environment a beginner can get it to work, and that is perfectly fine and to be expected. Learning these skills is a progression, after all.

But if you came at him with real intent, I do not believe he would be successful.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When you are not afraid of jab/cross, you will have more courage, everything will then move toward your advantage.

I agree. Once you are confident of handling this basic common attack, it frees you up to "concentrate" (I put this in quotes as it's really the opposite, but that's another topic) on what you want to throw and further control the action. Being hesitant in a fight is a sure way to lose. But to get confidence takes constant drilling, and even getting hit once in a while to learn that taking a hit is survivable and should be expected in a real fight. The main thing is to always have an offensive spirit, even in defense.

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage.

True. For this to occur, speed and timing are needed as you state. A couple of other factors in my definition of a good technique is that it should be as simple as possible, efficient, minimize your exposure to counter, and leave you in position to advance your attack. Of course, each of these things is a whole subject in itself. That's why I agreed with Flying Crane that there's more to a basic technique than simple motion and not easy for a beginner to execute it effectively against resistance on day, week or even month number 1. Besides, what's the hurry?

To follow this a little further: Karate, as a business that must often cater to the Western scourge of "immediate gratification," an instructor has to make the new student feel that he has achieved the ability to protect himself from almost day one. The student learns to defend a head punch and wrist grab and goes off happy he is now a karate man. He feels good about it and so is likely to return to class and get more of that feeling. Naturally, this is delusional as the student will likely be helpless from such attacks done with ferocity or resistance.

If the instructor is lucky enough not to need the "average" student, he can tell a new student not to expect to do anything meaningful with what he's learning for a couple of months, that it may even be a year before he can be confident of reliably defending against a real attack. If the instructor is not that lucky, the prospect may leave and look for a school that can sprinkle some fairy dust and turn him into an instant ninja.

So the instructor is in a dilemma - Setting a time frame that contradicts the student's expectation of easily won skill, realistically setting the expectation of being prepared for the long game, or building the student's motivation and (false) confidence of gaining quick skill from this great school. These have to be carefully balanced to gain and retain students, while maintaining some honest integrity.

Maybe the answer is to "Fake it till you make it," and hope the student doesn't get into a fight in the meantime. Seriously, I do believe there is a balanced approach including giving the student small wins along the way on the basics - "Good stance! See how that keeps me from pushing you over?" rather than, "See how you can block any punch in a fight?" I think this is the way to go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So wait a minute. You are claiming that your student, on his/her first day as a complete beginner, was able to use this against you for real? You were not being overly cooperative?

I can understand that within a cooperative environment a beginner can get it to work, and that is perfectly fine and to be expected. Learning these skills is a progression, after all.

But if you came at him with real intent, I do not believe he would be successful.

I told my new student that I will only throw 2 straight punches (jab-cross). No cheating. Nothing fancy at all. Most of my new students have more than 6 years of MA training experience. So may be they are not that new.

It may be a good idea that you can try this with your training partner. Ask your training partner to throw jab-cross 20 times. I'm sure you can use your circular punches to deflect all his 20 jab-cross.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I told my new student that I will only throw 2 straight punches (jab-cross). No cheating. Nothing fancy at all. Most of my new students have more than 6 years of MA training experience. So may be they are not that new.

It may be a good idea that you can try this with your training partner. Ask your training partner to throw jab-cross 20 times. I'm sure you can use your circular punches to deflect all his 20 jab-cross.

So when you said it should work on "Day 1", you actually meant "Day at least 2,190"? That's actually a much more reasonable definition...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe this technique also belong to this category - ability is not critical.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So when you said it should work on "Day 1", you actually meant "Day at least 2,190"? That's actually a much more reasonable definition...

You are right! I have not had any "true" new student for a lot time. Most of my new students all came from another MA schools. Even my last week new student that I just met him the first time, he is a head MA instructor for his own MA school.

 

[Flying Crane]

I told my new student that I will only throw 2 straight punches (jab-cross). No cheating. Nothing fancy at all. Most of my new students have more than 6 years of MA training experience. So may be they are not that new.

It may be a good idea that you can try this with your training partner. Ask your training partner to throw jab-cross 20 times. I'm sure you can use your circular punches to deflect all his 20 jab-cross.

When you know exactly what will be coming at you, that is an artificial situation and of course you can make it work. You could make the most unrealistic technique work, with that foreknowledge.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you know exactly what will be coming at you, that is an artificial situation and of course you can make it work. You could make the most unrealistic technique work, with that foreknowledge.

Is that suppose to be the definition of a "high percentage working technique"? MA is to learn how to open the right lock with the right key. When the opportunity is given, and if you have good speed and timing, that technique should work.

For example, if your opponent tries to sweep your leg, if you bend your leg at your knee joint, your opponent's sweeping foot should pass below your knee. It will be difficult for your opponent to sweep you down.

In other words, if a technique makes logical sense, it should work most of the time (if not all the time).

 

[dunc]

There are certainly techniques that can be taught quickly and are devastating against someone (even experienced martial artists) unfamiliar with them
There are techniques that are high percentage and can continue to be used (albeit with constant refinement) over the long haul against ever more experienced folk
There techniques that work because they “fit the moment” and perhaps these opportunities come up fairly rarely, so they are not really high percentage, but useful none the less

As an aside I don’t subscribe to the premise that speed is always needed to apply a good technique

 

[JowGaWolf]

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage.

For me a good technique is one that your opponent is least prepared for.

It's less about what I can do and more about what my opponent can prevent, which is why I'm of the mindset that I take what my opponent gives me.

The effectiveness, and reliability of any technique will decrease as your opponent's skill increases. Your best reliable technique that works will always be the one that your opponent is least prepared for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

After a teacher teaches that technique to a new student, if the new student uses it in sparring against his teacher, it should work on that teacher.

That sounds like you're saying a good technique is one that a new student with little experience can use against a resisting highly skilled person. If that's the case, there really aren't any "good" techniques, except by chance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some MA systems define ability as strength/power. Some MA systems may include speed as part of the ability. Since timing depends on 2 persons reaction, it may be hard to include it as part of the ability. IMO, the ability is what you develop at home by yourself without training partner.

When I found out that my students could deflect my jab/cross with their circular punches, I wished my teacher could teach me the circular punch on the 1st day of my training. Today, that's the 1st technique that I will teach to my new students.

When you are not afraid of jab/cross, you will have more courage, everything will then move toward your advantage.

That's not sparring, though (which is the context you secified in OP). That's someone feeding a specific pair of attacks, from what appears to be slightly too far away, with no attempt to prevent the technique in question (with masking, stutter timing, speed, etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe this technique also belong to this category - ability is not critical.

Again, not going to reliably happen for a new student in a resistive sparring situation.