What would you do it you were me
- Thread starter Tames D
- Start date
OP
OP
OP
OP
I think I'm still a little gun shy from the time I took my two kids to the mall for the first time without my wife being along. I think the boys were 3 and 5. I turned arund for a second and my 5 year old was gone. GONE.
The scariest 15 minutes of my life until I saw an Anaheim PD cop and mall security walking my crying son to me. I felt amazing relief followed by the feeling that I was going to spend the day in jail. I'll never forget that hopeless feeling that I was never going to see my son again.
The scariest 15 minutes of my life until I saw an Anaheim PD cop and mall security walking my crying son to me. I felt amazing relief followed by the feeling that I was going to spend the day in jail. I'll never forget that hopeless feeling that I was never going to see my son again.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
You've got a legitimate concern; you need to know that the folks you're entrusting your kids to are going to be responsible, even if the situation is scary to you. Or maybe especially then... Talk to them. Find out how the kids were instructed, and how they were safeguarded. What was the plan if someone took even longer to get to camp? Were there adults monitoring them? Was there a plan to find a group if they got themselves stuck in a circle? The BSA is pretty good today about requiring plans; years back, we probably winged it a bit more.
A few more thoughts, 'cause I can...
Twenty, thirty years back when I was a Scout, in my troop, the youths ran most everything, with adults as a safety check to monitor. I can easily recall the time that one of the patrol leaders came to me after football practice, and told me that the kids entrusted to shop for the backpacking trip that weekend hadn't bothered to do it. We ended up scrambling to do it, package it, and get everything ready. But WE did it -- not the Scoutmaster. Even back then, though, I did see troops where the parents did a whole lot more, and left very little in the kids's hands.
We did have mistakes, and we learned from them. Those same two patrol leaders who'd failed to shop disappeared on a trip where some people turned out not to have basic gear and to be prepared for a lot of inclement weather. That problem got dealt with... and we instituted a new requirement for a gear check before leaving on a trip. Then there was the trip where two knuckleheads who didn't really want to be there got "lost" and separated on the trail. They turned back, and figured they'd just camp near the cars and we'd come back on Sunday... No. The Scoutmaster and I walked the majority of the day's hike again, back to the last point we'd seen them, then we spent a fretful night, rerouting the trip to hike out the next day and get a search started. (Pre-cell phones... we didn't have an option other than going for help the next day.) That led to some more changes, like everybody meeting up at major trail junctions, and nobody goes on until everyone is accounted for.
But here's the thing -- those experiences taught me a lot about real leadership, and laid the foundation for a lot of my current success. And they couldn't have happened without having a loose enough leash to let us make some mistakes. Now, when I train rookies, I have a simple policy: If what the are doing or want to do isn't unsafe, unethical, illegal, or against policy, I let 'em do it. Even if it's not the way I'd do it, or if I know that it's not the best way. That lets them learn... and sometimes, I'm surprised and they actually do have a good idea!
Mauthos
2nd Black Belt
Felt I had to post here, as a father I would be worried about my child tramping through a forest without supervision, but in all honesty if they were in big groups I wouldn't be that concerned.
However, the above quote worries me as if you honestly believe that a person needs to be over twenty before they fully know why they do the things they do then surely that implies people, like myself, who joined the military at 18, didn't really know why they were doing it. Also you can vote at 18, so again, surely, if you don't understand why you are making these choices until you are twenty, then you shouldn't be voting either. I think that is a little excessive, some kids have definite ideas of what they want to do and why and can explain it logically and intelligently at ages 13 and below. Such as making choices on what A-levels they want to take and why etc.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
well, yes.
but no.
As the saying goes: Good choices come from experience, experience come from bad choices.
I think we tend to baby our kids, assume they can't, so we don't let them, thus they really can't.
Then, when they turn 20, they are supposed to be magically mature enough to function well.
Scouts is one of the few remaining places were kids are encouraged to do more than they think they can.
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
Good post Granfire. And your right, coyotes and bears don't normally attack people. and cars don't normally run over kids
I think I wasn't worried as much about the danger factor as I was ticked off by the lack of organization in getting the kids into camp so they can set up and cook their dinner at a reasonable time. Bcause as you know, they have to do all this and more for themselves at these events. And hey, alot of them are only 12 years old.
While I can understand your irritation, as I understand it, being a scout is about personal responsibility. Setting up a tent and then cooking your dinner, even if it is 10 pm, isn't going to harm the children. As stated previously, it's part of the adventure, and the dinner tastes that much better after accomplishing something like this!
I wasn't aloud to be in scouts, but I grew up in the sticks. My dad would take me out as a child and teach me to live off the land. When I was 10 years old, dad took me out into the woods, with 1 match, a knife, and a blanket, in January with about 2 feet of snow. He left me there for the weekend. Granted I was still on the family farm, and could hike back to the house at anytime, but it was an adventure! How long could I stay out there? Could I build myself shelter? Could I forage for food? Stay dry? Build a fire and stay warm?
I absolutely loved it! IMHO, if you've instilled the appropriate level of responsibility in your child, they will exceed your expectations.
If not? Well, remember Lord of the Flies.. .
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Stop making me want to take a week off work and go camping...
Setting up a tent and cooking dinner at 10pm isn't going to harm the children, but being out in the back country without sufficient food or water can harm anyone, of any age. I'm not saying that's what happened to Tames' kids, but its a mistake that happens all too often.
I don't think this was an overreaction on Tames part, just some concerns that may not have been clearly addressed, which can happen...esp. in a volunteer environment.
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
I agree, and if I were Tames, I would want to know the circumstances as well. i.e. what is the distance covered, what is the safety/monitoring/supervision protocol, are the scouts properly equipped and trained for the task, etc.. .
As long as it is in a somewhat controlled environment and the scouts are properly equipped, I, personally, would have no issue.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Incidentally, if i were running the group, id have a small team of adults, preferably well equipped (first aid, communications, and possibly a multipurpose knife), following them from about three hundred meters back. The kids wouldnt even have to know, and if something went awry, help could be there in about a minute.
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
This was the firepit/earth oven I built last summer at our camp. The camp is in the middle of nowhere, but you can get a 4 wheel drive mostly to it, then we have to pack the other 1/2 mile or so in to the site. Makes it nice that we can bring a lot more gear for a 6 day camping trip.
Yes that is a wooden spoon zip tied to a stick.. . Appalachian engineering at its finest
Yes that is a wooden spoon zip tied to a stick.. . Appalachian engineering at its finest
OP
OP
All the scouts had their 10 essentials and were prepared with map and compass. I really don't think they were in any real danger. Looking back and thinking this whole thing through, I realize my problem really had more to do with me than the circumstances.
i'm a bit of a control freak, and I didn't have control of a situation that obviously took way to long to complete. I'm not much of a rules and regulations guy but I try hard to adapt to these when necessary. I try to teach my kids to be better than me.
My experience with camp directors at these events is that they are hard nosed about everyone strickly following regulations. And I understand that. They have everyones safety at stake.They have responsibility.
So when things went a little out of whack, I guess I wanted to take it out on the camp director. After all, he should be perfect, right
?I learned alot about myself, and don't like what I see. I will improve.
This really is a great organization and they do care about the safety of our kids and helping them to grow into men that we can be proud of. I need to lighten up
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
This was the firepit/earth oven I built last summer at our camp. The camp is in the middle of nowhere, but you can get a 4 wheel drive mostly to it, then we have to pack the other 1/2 mile or so in to the site. Makes it nice that we can bring a lot more gear for a 6 day camping trip.
Yes that is a wooden spoon zip tied to a stick.. . Appalachian engineering at its finest
should you not use leather for that? Plastic does melt in heat, you know!
(BTW, I am stealing those pictures!
)
Cyriacus
Senior Master
SahBumNimRush, i swear you want me to go camping.
Im glad you had that epiphany, but dont forget that theres no harm in thinking the things you did. You dont have to look at those parts of yourself and not like them - Everyone (well, almost everyone) has these concerns. What differs between people is how we react to them, what we do about them, how we handle them, and so forth.
Hypothetically, if they were my kids, yeah, id be concerned. But i have a point of reference back to my own experiences, and i know that a group like that would be just fine. Even one or two of them on their own would probably be okay with a map and compass, given how close their destination was. Regardless, those thoughts are gonna happen, even though my knowledge and experience knows better. But i wouldnt act on those concerns, however, because knowledge and experience.
All the scouts had their 10 essentials and were prepared with map and compass. I really don't think they were in any real danger. Looking back and thinking this whole thing through, I realize my problem really had more to do with me than the circumstances.
i'm a bit of a control freak, and I didn't have control of a situation that obviously took way to long to complete. I'm not much of a rules and regulations guy but I try hard to adapt to these when necessary. I try to teach my kids to be better than me.
My experience with camp directors at these events is that they are hard nosed about everyone strickly following regulations. And I understand that. They have everyones safety at stake.They have responsibility.
So when things went a little out of whack, I guess I wanted to take it out on the camp director. After all, he should be perfect, right
I learned alot about myself, and don't like what I see. I will improve.
This really is a great organization and they do care about the safety of our kids and helping them to grow into men that we can be proud of. I need to lighten up
Im glad you had that epiphany, but dont forget that theres no harm in thinking the things you did. You dont have to look at those parts of yourself and not like them - Everyone (well, almost everyone) has these concerns. What differs between people is how we react to them, what we do about them, how we handle them, and so forth.
Hypothetically, if they were my kids, yeah, id be concerned. But i have a point of reference back to my own experiences, and i know that a group like that would be just fine. Even one or two of them on their own would probably be okay with a map and compass, given how close their destination was. Regardless, those thoughts are gonna happen, even though my knowledge and experience knows better. But i wouldnt act on those concerns, however, because knowledge and experience.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
To heck with the pictures, I am stealing the idea for an engineered fire pit spoon
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
but use leather, and soak it before you stick it in the fire!
If you dont have any leather, you can use a knife to caaarefully cut a 5ish (depending on the length of the spoon) cm hole in the end side of a nice meaty stick, and use a fire to lightly lightly heat it, so it hardens back up. Then just wedge the spoon in.
Oooh...I was thinking heat-resistant zip ties (I don't have any leather scraps handy) but I like that idea even better! Thank you for the excellent idea! :asian:
