What type of move is this?

[jks9199]

Where did this take place? It's true that in the states we don't generally tolerate this kind of behavior, but if this is in another country, who knows what their acceptable referee behaviors are. I'm not trying to justify what this guy did, but I'll bet that fellow thinks twice before breaking the rules of that organization again.

I don't care where it was. I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!

I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters. But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them! The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!

 

[cstanley]

I don't care where it was. I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!

I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters. But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them! The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!

Good point. If the ref let it get to the point where he was that po'd, he should have moved to disqualify much earlier.

 

[Scarey]

I don't care where it was. I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!

I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters. But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them! The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!

Good point. If the ref let it get to the point where he was that po'd, he should have moved to disqualify much earlier.

What I mean is, what we consider barbaric unsportsmanlike conduct, is standard operating procedure in other countries, such as Mexico. Just look at soccer. Physical altercation is the status quo. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is what it is. Here the guy would have been held legally accountable, there, who knows?

 

[jks9199]

What I mean is, what we consider barbaric unsportsmanlike conduct, is standard operating procedure in other countries, such as Mexico. Just look at soccer. Physical altercation is the status quo. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is what it is. Here the guy would have been held legally accountable, there, who knows?

You're talking in a circle...

The job of the referee is to control the match and ensure the safety of the fighters. That means enforcing the rules, and stopping misconduct before it crosses the line. That may sometimes require that you forcefully separate fighters, or -- VERY rarely -- to actually strike one competitor to protect the other.

I'll even grant that the competitor in this case may have done something to justify the intitial headbutt/takedown. But there's no justification for the referee to follow that up with the kick and stomp. No matter where you are -- that is an unwarranted assault.

 

[DavidCC]

There's another thread for what an *** this guy was. This thread was about the analysis of what he did...

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I think most agreed what he did was criminal and the police should have been brought in to press charges for assaulting a child.
If it were my kid competing and a ref stepped up behind him, knocked him out, then kicked him after falling, the police would have been there fast. I would have pressed charges as for as I could go.

AoG

 

[ArmorOfGod]

The guy should lose his license to referee. At the very least!

Lose his license...big deal. I have been to countless competitions and no one is "licensed" to referee. They just take volunteers.
Knocking out a 17 year old when he isn't looking, then kicking him after knocking him out is criminal behavior warrenting being arrested.

AoG

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Here we go: Me, with the unpopular perspective. I started karate in Hawaii as a kid in 71. We didn't dare lose our tempers or show disrespect to decorum, or we could count on getting the crap knocked out of us by our seniors. It was expected; it was their job. If we got out of hand, and cold-c0cked for it, we took it as the cuffing it was, and made a note not to do that again...unless we wanted another beating.

Now, we live in a sue-happy world of uber-political correctness, where the old ways immediately brand someone as a brute, a fiend, an out of control maniac requiring justice and incarceration, etc. I view this as a lesson in respect for the process. I doubt this kid that got thumped went home and thought about why he got spanked, but he certainly should have. It was this type of corporal, martial punishment that kept karateka on the straight and narrow for so long, kept the punks out; and it's the absence of it that leads to so much of the shenanigans we see in open tournaments now.

Time was, if the ref didn't pop you for being a putz, you could count on getting a black eye, fat lips, bloody nose and cracked ribs during the next class session after the tournament, from your own guys...Sempai and Sensei driving you into a corner and continuing to kick the crap out of you even after you've indicated surrender. Often followed by a quietly menacing admonition, "Never embarrass us like that again."

Now, coaches and instructors can be heard hollering poor sportsmanship from the bleachers; kids are instructed to take cheap shots to take the wind out of an opponents sails; and so on. The idea of an honorable match where two mutually respectful combatants bow in, fight clean, and congratulate each other on the good stuff are too far gone for me to feel sorry for this kid getting clocked by a senior. Karate begins and ends with courtesy and respect. If the seniors don't enforce it, who will?

Dave

 

[Myrmidon]

Now, we live in a sue-happy world of uber-political correctness, where the old ways immediately brand someone as a brute,

Tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...

a fiend, an out of control maniac requiring justice and incarceration, etc. I view this as a lesson in respect for the process.

I beg to differ... The referee acted as a bully... if something was wrong with the fight, he should have stopped it before things got out of hand...

I doubt this kid that got thumped went home and thought about why he got spanked, but he certainly should have.

This kid was not "spanked", he was viciously and abusively assaulted by an out-of-control adult...

Time was, if the ref didn't pop you for being a putz, you could count on getting a black eye, fat lips, bloody nose and cracked ribs during the next class session after the tournament, from your own guys...Sempai and Sensei driving you into a corner and continuing to kick the crap out of you even after you've indicated surrender. Often followed by a quietly menacing admonition, "Never embarrass us like that again."

Reminds me of "Cobra Kai"...

Now, coaches and instructors can be heard hollering poor sportsmanship from the bleachers; kids are instructed to take cheap shots to take the wind out of an opponents sails; and so on. The idea of an honorable match where two mutually respectful combatants bow in, fight clean, and congratulate each other on the good stuff are too far gone for me to feel sorry for this kid getting clocked by a senior. Karate begins and ends with courtesy and respect. If the seniors don't enforce it, who will?

As I told you... tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...

I beg to differ... The referee acted as a bully... if something was wrong with the fight, he should have stopped it before things got out of hand...

This kid was not "spanked", he was viciously and abusively assaulted by an out-of-control adult...

Reminds me of "Cobra Kai"...

As I told you... tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...

Boy...you told me. My question would have to be, in the spirit of the deconstructionists, "Who is speaking?" To make this blanket assertion, you would have to know all of the proponents & participants of the old ways. Tournament fighting as it is today was not. Jiu-kumite, however, has been around since pre-WW2. I know personally -- and know of more -- folk who came up this way in the "old ways", with nothing "cobra-kai' about it; just how quality control was managed. Perhaps, you should take it up with them, before making sweeeping generalizations on the behalf of an entire tradition, as if there was one.

Dave

 

[Myrmidon]

Boy...you told me. My question would have to be, in the spirit of the deconstructionists, "Who is speaking?"

Who I am is not important...

To make this blanket assertion, you would have to know all of the proponents & participants of the old ways.

Over 35 years of hard and continious training in "old style" okinawan karate, a few of them in Okinawa... and a few more years in judo and old style ju jutsu... That should give me a good idea of the real "old ways"

Tournament fighting as it is today was not.

I agree...

Jiu-kumite, however, has been around since pre-WW2.

I agree... and there was (and is) also something called "real fighting"... and it has nothing to do with "jiu kumite"...

I know personally -- and know of more -- folk who came up this way in the "old ways", with nothing "cobra-kai' about it; just how quality control was managed.

What you call "old ways" is obviously different from what I call "old ways"...

Perhaps, you should take it up with them, before making sweeeping generalizations on the behalf of an entire tradition, as if there was one.

I am not making "sweeping generalizations" about what you call "an entire tradition", I'm just commenting specifically on the particular methods mentioned by you... About taking it up with them... no problem...

 

[cstanley]

Who I am is not important...



Over 35 years of hard and continious training in "old style" okinawan karate, a few of them in Okinawa... and a few more years in judo and old style ju jutsu... That should give me a good idea of the real "old ways"



I agree...



I agree... and there was (and is) also something called "real fighting"... and it has nothing to do with "jiu kumite"...



What you call "old ways" is obviously different from what I call "old ways"...



I am not making "sweeping generalizations" about what you call "an entire tradition", I'm just commenting specifically on the particular methods mentioned by you... About taking it up with them... no problem...

Myrmidon, sounds like you and I might agree on things, but it would help if you listed the ryu in which you train. "Hand & Sword" isn't much help. If you are so proud of "old style Okinawan karate" seems like you would want us to know which "style." Mine is Motobu ha Shito ryu (33 years)

 

[Myrmidon]

Goju Ryu... Toguchi lineage.

 

[cstanley]

Goju Ryu... Toguchi lineage.

Excellent! We should be on the same page.

 

[Scarey]

These old ways you speak of sound alot like what the current grand masters I'm acquainted with have described. Tales of black belt tests filled with students in kibadachis for 3 hours because the testing board went for an extended lunch, or being beaten by the testers with their belts as an initiation. For all of you kyu ranks that have never handled a black belt, that would be no picnic due to the fact that they are about 3 times as dense as the ones you get (at least in my style, I can't say I actually know for everyone else). I'm quite thankful I didn't have to go through things like that. Of course about 10 minutes into my 1st dan test I suffered a rather severe ankle sprain due to my nerves throwing me a bit off. So I went over 2 more hours on it. I wasn't about to let something like that stop me. Back on subject, just because the more civilized nations have moved on to a kinder gentler form of teaching the arts, doesn't mean every one on earth has.

 

[cstanley]

These old ways you speak of sound alot like what the current grand masters I'm acquainted with have described. Tales of black belt tests filled with students in kibadachis for 3 hours because the testing board went for an extended lunch, or being beaten by the testers with their belts as an initiation. For all of you kyu ranks that have never handled a black belt, that would be no picnic due to the fact that they are about 3 times as dense as the ones you get (at least in my style, I can't say I actually know for everyone else). I'm quite thankful I didn't have to go through things like that. Of course about 10 minutes into my 1st dan test I suffered a rather severe ankle sprain due to my nerves throwing me a bit off. So I went over 2 more hours on it. I wasn't about to let something like that stop me. Back on subject, just because the more civilized nations have moved on to a kinder gentler form of teaching the arts, doesn't mean every one on earth has.

"Grand Masters?" I don't know any sensei in traditional Okinawan or Japanese arts that would call themselves "grand master" or allow their students to. Maybe they are embellishing a bit to make them seem more like "grand masters."

Good traditional karate should be hard and uncomfortable at times. Tetsing should be demanding and challenging. But, it isn't the brutal nonsense you hear about after 5 or 6 beers: "Our sensei used to cut our heads off with his sword and dance around the dojo shouting halleluja! You can't tell students that today, though. They just won't believe you."

 

[Scarey]

"Grand Masters?" I don't know any sensei in traditional Okinawan or Japanese arts that would call themselves "grand master" or allow their students to. Maybe they are embellishing a bit to make them seem more like "grand masters."

Good traditional karate should be hard and uncomfortable at times. Tetsing should be demanding and challenging. But, it isn't the brutal nonsense you hear about after 5 or 6 beers: "Our sensei used to cut our heads off with his sword and dance around the dojo shouting halleluja! You can't tell students that today, though. They just won't believe you."

I just use the term "grand master", as it is the translation I was given for Hanshi, I use it as a general term for anyone with the rank of 9th or 10th dan, because although unusual, some of them in the world may not be the head of an organization. Of course the ones I know are, but you never know. And maybe my teachers teachers were in to "brutal nonsense", you have no way of knowing personally. Also, are you always this rude to anyone who throws a little support your way?

 

[cstanley]

I just use the term "grand master", as it is the translation I was given for Hanshi, I use it as a general term for anyone with the rank of 9th or 10th dan, because although unusual, some of them in the world may not be the head of an organization. Of course the ones I know are, but you never know. And maybe my teachers teachers were in to "brutal nonsense", you have no way of knowing personally. Also, are you always this rude to anyone who throws a little support your way?

I don't see what I said as being rude. It was an effort to correct a misunderstanding of the over-used term, "Grand Master," which is not a proper translation of the term Hanshi. A lot of people today would consider good hard traditional training to be brutal nonsense. They are wrong, of course. I was referring to some of the exaggerations you often hear.

 

[Scarey]

I don't see what I said as being rude. It was an effort to correct a misunderstanding of the over-used term, "Grand Master," which is not a proper translation of the term Hanshi. A lot of people today would consider good hard traditional training to be brutal nonsense. They are wrong, of course. I was referring to some of the exaggerations you often hear.

Well it's always good to clear these kinds of things up, I guess I interpreted what i perceived to be a blunt statement of opinion in a factual manner as being rude. As for exaggeration, you and I both have no way of truly knowing what the truth on the matter is. I just don't see a reason for my superiors to make things like that up. On the subject of etymology, would you care to enlighten me on the literal Japanese to English translation of the term "Hanshi"? Finally, on your point about hard training, that was the meaning I was attempting to convey with my previous post.

 

[cstanley]

Well it's always good to clear these kinds of things up, I guess I interpreted what i perceived to be a blunt statement of opinion in a factual manner as being rude. As for exaggeration, you and I both have no way of truly knowing what the truth on the matter is. I just don't see a reason for my superiors to make things like that up. On the subject of etymology, would you care to enlighten me on the literal Japanese to English translation of the term "Hanshi"? Finally, on your point about hard training, that was the meaning I was attempting to convey with my previous post.

Hanshi is sometimes used to refer to the founder or inheritor of a ryu (although my Japanese instructor said this is technically incorrect). It is most often a senior designation given to someone who has achieved hachi dan with the added distinction of having contributed a great deal to the ryu by way of teaching, good will, etc. It is not a designation based upon skill or that is intended to designate a particular skill level. It is more like an honorary doctorate from a university. It is also greatly over used.