What Terrorism and the Terrified Hath Wrought

[Empty Hands]

A recently accepted amendment to the 9/11 First Responders Bill requires that all those who are to be treated must first be checked through the terrorism watch list by the FBI. A kick in the face, a nasty way to treat those who sacrificed their health to help others, sure. That's just the beginning though, and it got me thinking.

Another thing that got me thinking was the security lines at Dulles International on a trip back from a conference. Got my first set of naked scans on that trip. All the signs warning about terrorism, the signs warning against making jokes or complaints, the lines of people packing in to strip every extra item off of their persons so they could get the naked scan.

I'm not very old. Even I can remember how much less insane we used to be about such things. Sure, the trends were in place long before 9/11, but everything has accelerated so much in the last 10 years. The abuses. The now routine contravention of the Bill of Rights in certain types of cases. Torture. Impenetrable secret watch lists. Talk of this security nightmare spreading to trains, buses and the highways. All of that, and most of the population goes right along with it, or cheers it on.

Is this slide inevitable? Will I look back in another 10, 20 or 30 years and marvel at how much worse things have gotten since even 2011? What will be the next step? Or will we calm down and back away from the brink?

I used to be certain that the fear and the crazy reaction to it would subside, that things would go back to normal. I'm not so sure anymore. A lot of this stuff looks like it's here to stay.

What say you?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The people who wet themselves in terror in 2001, who signed away many of our rights without even reading what they signed, are still the ones in power. Until they go, until people who can read and who respect freedom replace them, it'll be more of the same. I hold no hope for a return to sanity, but an expectation that things will continue to worsen. We're no safer today than we were on 9/10/01. I would say in fact we're less secure.

The "theater" that mall-cop-rejects like the TSA put on fool the mouth-breathers who pick their president based on his hair style but not anyone actually capable of thinking on their own. Weapons are still getting through the 'extra' checks. We stop grandma from bringing her knitting on, yet a bag that goes through both the xray and a hand search still contains a 12" razor when it reaches the airplane. Why? Your luggage is still a camera lighter when it's returned to you, yet we're to trust these same criminals to protect us? Does that make sense?

Now they want to extend these 'precautions' to bus and train travel? It's bad enough that they can put up a 'border patrol inspection station" 50 miles from the US border and force you to play their games, to 'lawfully' detain you until you answer their questions properly. There is a saying, "Those who would give up freedom for the illusion of security deserve neither". He was talking to us. A shame that most people today don't get it and prefer fantasy to reality.

 

[elder999]

Here to stay. Only going to get worse. This is only the 10th year of our fear, with more fear yet to come.

 

[Carol]

Here to stay. Only going to get worse. This is only the 10th year of our fear, with more fear yet to come.

Indeed. Ever notice how your Droid needs a 3G connection to get the speech-to-text engine to work properly? All the heavy work is offloaded to a server somewhere.

Eever notice as scientists how speech-to-text isn't fundamentally different than bomb detection? Algorithms and a SQL database, just one detector is is wave to diaphragm and the other is ray to crystal. All the heavy work is offloaded to a server somewhere. Face recognition. Ray to crystal. All the heavy work is belong to us.


To the cloud, gentlemen...

 

[Empty Hands]

The people who wet themselves in terror in 2001, who signed away many of our rights without even reading what they signed, are still the ones in power. Until they go, until people who can read and who respect freedom replace them, it'll be more of the same.

They would have been gone within a few years if the public wanted them gone. The public doesn't seem to want them, or the intrusions, gone at all. It's only a few "nutball" civil rights activists who seem to care. Even in my personal experience I've overheard multiple people cheering this crap on, who parrot something like "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide."

Many, perhaps most, people are authoritarian or authority-seeking by nature. That's why these institutions are so precious and difficult to maintain long term, and those institutions are crumbling. Some things, like personal freedoms surrounding religion or sexual orientation have gotten much better, as social attitudes have changed. Many other things have gotten worse though, and the social attitude appears to be mirroring or even driving it.

This is where I would have greatly appreciated a principled conservative party in the US. Such people would have been champions for preserving these important social institutions like the Bill of Rights and the Justice system. Conservatives and liberals should be working together on these issues. With a few honorable exceptions, that just isn't happening.

 

[Twin Fist]

so the government should do nothing and leave us wide open to the next attack by radical nucases.......


ok

 

[Archangel M]

I agree. I recently went around with some people who actually believe that pat frisking 7 year olds before they get onto planes is a necessity.

However...if you really want to prevent terrorists from getting on planes you need to be looking at people who are "likely" to be part of that group. 80 yo Stella is unlikely to be a terrorist based on todays circumstances. What that means is "profiling"...yes the evil P word.

 

[Twin Fist]

liberals say no profiling......

 

[Bob Hubbard]

so the government should do nothing and leave us wide open to the next attack by radical nucases.......


ok

Fondeling children and hiring screwups doesn't make us secure.

Secure the border. This is more than hiring a dozen underarmed men. This is to truly secure it, and greatly reduce maybe eliminate the human, drug, gun and other contraband smuggling.

Enforce immigration laws and undocumented worker laws. Don't give me the 'your lettuce will go up' line. INS is busting entire crews at restaurants and mall stores now.

Hire -Honest- screeners and screen 100% of all baggage and cargo. How can I trust that they found a bomb if they're busy riffling my underwear looking for my camera?

Check VISA's for non-citizens, and be more particular in who you give them to. I seem to remember that all the 9/11 guys had entered legally, but we on expired visas at the end.

Stop mucking about playing king maker on the world stage so more people find reasons to hate us. You don't see too many people burning Canadian flags do ya?


All of that can be done without burning the USC, turning us into a police state, or forcing us to carry papers at all times while a uniformed civilian molests little kids as a job requirement.

 

[Twin Fist]

i would agree with pretty much all of that Bob

 

[shesulsa]

The real job that needs to be done is deporting illegals.

Sorry.

I understand illegal immigration and the suffering others are enduring ... but this is collapsing the country.

INS should either step up and do their fekking job or be completely fired and re-staffed.

Go ahead and profile - works for the Israelis. Makes more sense than strip-searching every damn American who wants to exit their home or travel anywhere else in the world.


No.

I see it only getting worse.

And I weep for American soldiers harder. And longer. Because they no longer fight for freedom.

 

[granfire]

The real job that needs to be done is deporting illegals.

Sorry.

I understand illegal immigration and the suffering others are enduring ... but this is collapsing the country.

Well, no.
In most cases these people fill necessary jobs in this country no native person would touch. Not even those 13 million looking for jobs.
But I do agree there needs to be an overhaul to fix this situation. because it's ridiculous.

INS should either step up and do their fekking job or be completely fired and re-staffed.

well, I don't think it's the staff's fault. $$ and political pressure...
and let's not forget, a lot of those people who cry foul about illegal immigration, because it''s the in thing to do, have their own illegal gardeners or maids or nannies.
Was a case a while back where one of the loudest voices got caught supporting a business hiring illegals...

Go ahead and profile - works for the Israelis. Makes more sense than strip-searching every damn American who wants to exit their home or travel anywhere else in the world.

well, profiling seems to be the logical thing to do. But, hey, nobody can ever accuse us of doing the logical thing, now can they.
(the Israely thing eludes me, maybe I skipped the relevant post due to ignore list functions?)

I see it only getting worse.

And I weep for American soldiers harder. And longer. Because they no longer fight for freedom.

Well, you got that right. We have silently given up, or allowed ourselves to be bullied into giving up many right that we have previously taken for granted.

Freedom is an illusion, and as a popular bumper sticker notes, not free.

 

[Twin Fist]

Well, no.
In most cases these people fill necessary jobs in this country no native person would touch.

********. Most illegals here in this town are not picking lettuce, they are working for landscaping and construction, i know a few years ago i couldnt get on with a contractor who told me flat out, he could pay an illegal less than he could pay me

 

[shesulsa]

**EDITING**

Well, no.
In most cases these people fill necessary jobs in this country no native person would touch. Not even those 13 million looking for jobs.
But I do agree there needs to be an overhaul to fix this situation. because it's ridiculous.

I'll betcha *someone* would take them. But they'd have to be paid more than $3 per hour.

well, I don't think it's the staff's fault. $$ and political pressure...
and let's not forget, a lot of those people who cry foul about illegal immigration, because it''s the in thing to do, have their own illegal gardeners or maids or nannies.
Was a case a while back where one of the loudest voices got caught supporting a business hiring illegals...

It's not their fault? Hm. Isn't it their job to do exactly that? Control immigration? Monitor visas? But it's not their fault? Hm. I get that they are a government agency and are bound to bias and whatnot ... and that needs to stop. Besides ... it doesn't seem to matter if a Democrat or Republican is in office or who controls the congress ... they continue to fail at their job.

And of course people who are hiring illegals don't want to get caught - why would they outwardly support illegal immigration and the abuse of low-income persons when they take advantage? Law-breakers telling the truth about what they're doing is ... uh ... unheard of.

well, profiling seems to be the logical thing to do. But, hey, nobody can ever accuse us of doing the logical thing, now can they.
(the Israely thing eludes me, maybe I skipped the relevant post due to ignore list functions?)

Previous discussions on anti-terrorism. Pressed for time right now, but will find link later.

Well, you got that right. We have silently given up, or allowed ourselves to be bullied into giving up many right that we have previously taken for granted.

Freedom is an illusion, and as a popular bumper sticker notes, not free.

:asian:

 

[granfire]

I worked in the field of those jobs.

They are minimum wage jobs. And no, those natives that to come looking for those jobs don't want to do the work, it's hard labor and dirty. They want the money tho.

maybe now those jobs could be filled...but I am not holding my breath. There has been more than one uttering of a certain demographic that somewhat stated 'great grand father picked cotton, I'll be damned if I work in a field'

I don't agree on the illegal status. But turning a blind eye to the contribution does not make sense either. (not to mention a lot have face social security cards and thus pay into the system, but can never draw from it but that's a whole nother problem)


The INS has become a political pawn. I don't even think that, safe for the top 2 or 3 tiers any one has a real influence on the policy. They have to be everywhere, not just on the borders, because the borders come to you with every international airport.

They also have to keep taps of people in a country that does not require people to register their residence. And it's a pretty big country.
They are not set up to do the job that basically can't be done anyhow. lose/lose.


(and no, you don't have to find the link, if it came from my 2 bestest friends, there is a reason I don't read it)

 

[Empty Hands]

How did this turn to illegal immigration? How are illegal immigrants fueling the security state and the erosion of civil liberties in response to terrorism?

Answer: they aren't.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Illegal immigration is tied to unsecure borders, which are a security issue.
If the borders were secure, we wouldn't need BP checkpoints 100 miles inside the country or the "Constitution Free Zone".

 

[elder999]

If the borders were secure, we wouldn't need BP checkpoints 100 miles inside the country or the "Constitution Free Zone".

But those checkpoints have been SOP for the Border Patrol since long before the 1st year of our fear. The BP has pretty much always been able to stop people and question them anywhere within U.S. borders.

 

[Makalakumu]

so the government should do nothing and leave us wide open to the next attack by radical nucases.......


ok

Yes, because the government can't protect us. After, trillions of dollars of spending, spurious drills, and a whole bunch of other crazy circumstances that make no sense whatsoever, it all amounts to a bunch of excuses as to why it didn't work. Meanwhile no one knows the truth.

In the meantime, I recently flew and the guy right in front of me was a soldier in uniform. The TSA made him take off his boots, belt, and all other pieces of metal. Then they scanned him and archived naked pictures of his body. I was so astounded by the absurdity of it all that I forgot to take pictures.

So, now our so called protectors of freedom are terrorists? I'm sure the people under attack all over the world might agree. Here's what our government says...

“Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.”

It's on page 3 of 9.
http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

Fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear...

Haven't we seen this play before?

 

[Empty Hands]

Illegal immigration is tied to unsecure borders, which are a security issue.
If the borders were secure, we wouldn't need BP checkpoints 100 miles inside the country or the "Constitution Free Zone".

OK, now what about the airport security, the erosion of the Bill of Rights in terrorism cases, the approved use of torture, and the TSA at trains and buses? Elaborate methods to catch illegal immigrants?