what makes bad krav. (crap maga)

[Runs With Fire]

Just a quick note, your instructor holds no rank in Krav Maga according to this page The Owners - Crusader Martial Arts
He is a very accomplished TSD instructor thats for sure.

Martin Pedata is a bit weird too, he can't be found in any of the bigger organisations, which you would've expected when someone is a founder of 2 systems.

Look im not here to defame someone it's just little details.

Another question, have you ever looked outside of your own school / organisation? Maybe this is chance to look outside your comfortzone....just a tip.

Weird is ok.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Martin is the style head of Combat Krav Maga. I know he was a professional fighter with over 100 professional fights.

A hundred professional fights is a bit of an extreme number. Unless you grew up in Thailand or something.

I checked out Martin Pedata's bio and it doesn't seem to actually claim that kind of record. It looks like he mostly competed in point karate (which would not usually be professional). It says he medaled twice at a North American Savate "World Championship" run by an organization which (so far as I can tell) only lasted for a couple of years. That appears to have been amateur as well.

He may have fought professionally at some point, but I can't find any evidence of it and he doesn't publish claims to that effect online.

(He also doesn't provide any info as to where he received any of his training, ranks, or certifications, including those for Krav Maga. I have no idea whether he would be a legitimate authority on that art.)

 

[Runs With Fire]

Oh, the joys of free market capitalism.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Then maybe, before asking on a forum, look in your own close environment first.

And before calling others crap please check your own teachers background. There is something fishy going on about the origins of your Krav

I'll think about it.

 

[drop bear]

If three guys cant use their krav while armed with weapons to take one guy to the deck and beat on him.

That is bad krav.

 

[Kababayan]

Gosh darn it. I only check MT once a week or so and I miss great topics like this. David Kahn of IKMA says it much better than I can: Israeli Krav Maga - Cherry Hill. I think that's the right link.

Here is my perspective to the topic of "Bad Krav". There is a major push in the Krav Maga world to keep "Krav Maga" from becoming a generic term like Karate or Kung Fu. Krav is very systematic (step-by-step.) Most true Krav Maga schools require students to say out the movements step-by-step so that they aren't leaving anything out. Every move has a purpose. I think a perfect example of Bad Krav would be anything that steers away from the systematic movements of Imi Lichtenfeld's Krav Maga system or his approved modifications. I'm not saying that any additions to Krav Maga are bad, I just am saying that too many additions can change the system and it stops being Krav Maga. It would be the same as adding a bunch of stickfighting, straightblasts, and trapping to Tae Kwon Do; there would become a point where it stops being TKD by definition. IKMA has added more groundfighting, but this was done with Imi Lichtenfeld's permission; the same with any additions by KMWW.

Aside from the point of bad instructors (there are plenty of those) it needs to be pointed out that bad Krav is anything that is not "Krav Maga" by definition. Krav Maga is a relativity new system of self defense. All of its instructors have to be linked back to Imi Lichtenfeld or it simply isn't Krav Maga.

There are two ways I would define the topic of "Bad Krav". One would be looking at what makes up "bad technique" of real Krav Maga, which is what I think Runs with Fire was intending, and the other would be what makes up a "bad version of the system of Krav." An example of "bad technique" would be not stepping offline and turning the shoulder away during a gun defense or not pinning the gun to the person's body before the disarm. An example of a "bad version of the system of Krav" is when I blend too many sidekicks in with my club defenses (which I am totally guilty of.) Sometimes my stuff becomes Krav-fu because I blend my martial arts training in with Krav Maga. When I do that I am practicing bad Krav. That doesn't mean it's not effective, that just means it's not Krav Maga.

If you train with any of the following organizations, or have lineage back to them, you are getting good Krav technique. I may be leaving out some, so my apologies in advance:

KMWW
IKMF
IKMA
KWG
KMA

This is just off the top of my head. I know I'm leaving some out., so I'm sorry if I did. If you train at a Krav school that doesn't link back Imi's students, I'm not trying to put down what you are training. It may be very, very good, but you run the risk on not getting actual Krav Maga training.

Just to add, if you are in Southern California and have a chance to train with Mike Mihalkanin (MMA Academy/Darren Levine lineage) or Dana Ben Kaplan (IKMF), they are both excellent Krav instructors. IKMA (David Kahn) has an instructor in Los Angeles (Alex O'Neil). I've never trained with him but IKMA is excellent.

 

[Kababayan]

I had to share

 

[wab25]

An example of "bad technique" would be not stepping offline and turning the shoulder away during a gun defense or not pinning the gun to the person's body before the disarm.

Are you saying that this guy is teaching bad technique?

 

[Kababayan]

Are you saying that this guy is teaching bad technique?

Eyal Yanilov knows way more about Krav Maga than I do (obviously). Ironically I was taught by an IKMF instructor (Eyal is the head of the IKMF) to pin the gun to the attacker's hip (pointing the barrel back), if you are close enough, for control and so that the bullet goes back into the attacker if the gun goes off. Sorry, buddy, I don't have an answer for you.

 

[Kababayan]

Are you saying that this guy is teaching bad technique?

I responded early before actually watching the video. I just figured that you were trying to support a counter argument, but after watching the video he does push the gun to the hip before the disarm. He even pushes the barrel into the attacker slightly. I didn't watch the video with sound so he may or may not be explaining that. When he does the disarm quickly he pushes the gun into the attacker. When it is done slower the attacker steps back, which brings the gun away from the hip. I'm sure that you were trying to make a counter-point, but I'm glad that I watched the video to see that I didn't screw up too badly. (Whew)

 

[wab25]

One of the things that shows me Crap Maga, is pinning the gun to the attackers hip. So you end up using your hand and arm against the other guys entire body. Most arts teach power generation through the hip.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that it shows the quality control issues others raised in the thread. Mr Yanilov is an expert in Krav Maga, learned from the founder I believe, and is one of the top 3 guys in this system. However, I have never seen the local Krav guys teach that gun disarm anything like Mr Yanilov does. The local guys (that I have seen) teach to stay directly in front, use your left arm only to deflect the gun, then pin the gun to the attackers hip with your left arm locked out, punch him in the face and then strip the gun. I have a long list of issues with this technique. Yet, the head of one of the systems, a guy that trained with the founder, does not teach that technique. Mr Yanilov's technique, while different to what I have studied, actually addresses most if not all of my issues. But, Mr Yanilov's technique never gets taught, unless you learn from him.

 

[wab25]

but after watching the video he does push the gun to the hip before the disarm

At time 4 minutes... he shows and explains what he is doing. He is messing with the angle of the attackers wrist. He shows that if the attacker keeps his wrist straight, it won't work, you must bend his wrist. In his break down, he is never pinning the gun to the guys hip. If you listen to him explain, he is getting behind the weapon, and pushing the weapon down, to bend the wrist before stripping. He never said, and does not show pinning the gun to the guys hip.

 

[Runs With Fire]

There are two ways I would define the topic of "Bad Krav". One would be looking at what makes up "bad technique" of real Krav Maga, which is what I think Runs with Fire was intending, and the other would be what makes up a "bad version of the system of Krav." An example of "bad technique" would be not stepping offline and turning the shoulder away during a gun defense or not pinning the gun to the person's body before the disarm. An example of a "bad version of the system of Krav" is when I blend too many sidekicks in with my club defenses (which I am totally guilty of.) Sometimes my stuff becomes Krav-fu because I blend my martial arts training in with Krav Maga. When I do that I am practicing bad Krav. That doesn't mean it's not effective, that just means it's not Krav Maga.

Bad technique to the point of being unnecessarily dangerous or ineffective is what I have a problem with. I've cross trained to the point that sometimes my krav is like a pot of chilli at a potluck. Can't quite tell what's in it, but it works. I'm not one to be stuck on stylistic stipulations. I'm not a complete Sloppy Joe martial artist though. But for the sake of krav, and as to not confuse new students, I try to check my completely contradictory tendencies at the door and put on my krav hat.

 

[Runs With Fire]

I trained under Bill Church of Crusader Martial arts. He trained under Martin Pedata of Deland Florida.
He trained kickboxing, then combat style taekwondo ( without forms), savate, and Krav. Don't know his instructor's name. I think he was with KMWW and Universal for a while. Martin is the style head of Combat Krav Maga. I know he was a professional fighter with over 100 professional fights. He's coming up this week to observe classes. I'll talk to him.

I made a boo boo. I remembered it wrong. It's 100 kickboxing matches, not 100 pro matches.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I made a boo boo. I remembered it wrong. It's 100 kickboxing matches, not 100 pro matches.

I don't believe it....... 100 kickboxing matches.

My personal opinion.

Judging from his published bio it seems more likely that he participated in 100 point karate tournaments and also some kickboxing on the side.