What MA cliches wind you up?

[ballen0351]

Actually, seldom from cops. And when they do, it's usually very qualified in how they reach that statement. At that point, yeah, it's certainly along the lines of "I'm doing what I have to in order to survive; getting tried beats being the guest of honor at a funeral." But I hear too many people saying it while they're trying to justify their plan or idea to use extreme force with little or no justification.

I managed to dig up a few of the instances it came up:
Here
Here
Here

and here's even an instance where I used it....

Except that saying has nothing to Do with justification for committing a crime. If a few random folks are not smart enough to to know the difference (and I suspect they do they are just selling wolf tickets on the internet) that doesn't make the statement flawed it makes the few posters on the internet wrong. I've heard that quote for over a decade if not longer and it hasn't caused anyone I've ever know to kill anyone or use excessive force. So a majority of folks seem to understand it.

 

[Mephisto]

Dude its just a quick little saying to prove a point. It losses it's effectiveness of it takes you 45 min to recite it because you cover every possible option known to man. If your not smart enough to realize life or death struggles are more complicated then 9 words well I'm sorry.


PS I know MANY convicted murderers thay have done less than 6 years in prision. So 6 years in prision vs death well not much of a choice. My kids will still be kids in 6 years. In fact I arrested a guy last week that was charged with accessory after the fact for murder in 2002 and did 18 months then convicted of murder in 2004 did 5 years and I arrested him for armed robbery last week. So if it comes down to it I'll risk court

Length of the saying doesn't matter, it's an oversimplication as has been mentioned. If it requires more explaining to make sense one way or the other it's an oversimplification. The point of this thread is to analyze common cliches and identify why we find them faulty.

Are you really going to tell us 6 years in prison is no big deal? Given the choice, I'd rather just avoid prison and live. That's an option too tbat thus cliche ignores. I'm surprised an Leo is so adamant about this. Your job as an Leo is worlds away from what applies to a regular person. Perhaps consider an alternate viewpoint? Prison is not a favorable option to death, there are more choices to the law abiding citizen who takes the time to train and educate himself.

Except that saying has noting to Don with justification for committing a crime. If a few random folks are not smart enough to to know the difference (and I suspect they do they are just selling wolf tickets on the internet) that doesn't make the statement flawed it makes the few posters on the internet wrong. I've heard that quote for over a decade if not longer and it hasn't caused anyone I've ever know to kill anyone or use excessive force. So a majority of folks seem to understand it.

So you're appealing to tradition? "Well we've said it for so many years so it must be right." No, this thread is about questioning tradition and popular culture. It doesn't mAtter how many people say it, no one is beyond question. It doesn't matter how many people you know that share your opinion, this is a discussion about cliche which equates to tradition and common sayings and weather it makes sense when logic is applied.

 

[elder999]

Length of the saying doesn't matter, it's an oversimplication as has been mentioned. If it requires more explaining to make sense one way or the other it's an oversimplification. The point of this thread is to analyze common cliches and identify why we find them faulty..

It is an oversimplification. It's not faulty:

Faced with someone attempting to take your life, what would you do to prevent that?

Given that, and what it entails, would you rather be killed and have a funeral (carried by six) or arrested for saving your own life, tried for saving your own life, and sent to prison for saving your own life?

It's only an oversimplification to those who cannot imagine that those are the choices-but, very often, those are the choices. While I can understand the reaction of some to the way others have used it, the fact is that having made that choice, it's a statement I can agree with, a rule I can live by. Coupled with commons sense, and knowledge of use of force law, such a mindset forestalls some of the indecisiveness that occurs under circumstances like these.....

If someone is going to try to kill me-or do harm to me or my loved ones-I'd rather risk killing them, or risk deciding to kill them, or risk "accidentally" killing them, than die. Risking that means risking being measured by the criminal justice system-no matter how justified I might feel myself to be, or actually be.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Sure it's a cliche-go ahead-hate it. Doesn't make it any less true, even for you, under the right circumstances.

 

[Buka]

A little over six hours ago I posted on a cliches in MA thread. Now there's seven pages bitching at each other about deadly force and such.

Dudes, c'mon, chill for Christ's sake.

 

[Mephisto]

It is an oversimplification. It's not faulty:

Faced with someone attempting to take your life, what would you do to prevent that?

Given that, and what it entails, would you rather be killed and have a funeral (carried by six) or arrested for saving your own life, tried for saving your own life, and sent to prison for saving your own life?

It's only an oversimplification to those who cannot imagine that those are the choices-but, very often, those are the choices. While I can understand the reaction of some to the way others have used it, the fact is that having made that choice, it's a statement I can agree with, a rule I can live by. Coupled with commons sense, and knowledge of use of force law, such a mindset forestalls some of the indecisiveness that occurs under circumstances like these.....

If someone is going to try to kill me-or do harm to me or my loved ones-I'd rather risk killing them, or risk deciding to kill them, or risk "accidentally" killing them, than die. Risking that means risking being measured by the criminal justice system-no matter how justified I might feel myself to be, or actually be.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Sure it's a cliche-go ahead-hate it. Doesn't make it any less true, even for you, under the right circumstances.

Like we said man, the quote in mention is often used in accompaniment to bs and irresponsible technique. If kill or be killed is truly your only lawful option the answer is obvious, it may often play out that way. But it's also common for a person to feel threatened and kill without the proper justification. Just because you think killing the other guy is your only option doesn't mean a jury will agree. The quote creates the illusion of only two options, this isn't always the case. A repeated mantra that isn't always true can be problematic for those who fail to analyze the mantra critically.

A little over six hours ago I posted on a cliches in MA thread. Now there's seven pages bitching at each other about deadly force and such.

Dudes, c'mon, chill for Christ's sake.

Well it's a discussion, if you don't like it why are you posting your bitchy reply? Leave the thread, or progress the conversation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And going to court as a defendant still sucks. Even if you are innocent.

Lot of experience in that have you?

 

[Reeksta]

A little over six hours ago I posted on a cliches in MA thread. Now there's seven pages bitching at each other about deadly force and such.

Dudes, c'mon, chill for Christ's sake.

To be fair, it would be nice to get back on track and return to what this thread was supposed to be about, especially when we clearly have a situation where no-one is going to change anyone else's mind. It's frustrating though to be told that our opinion on what is ultimately a purely subjective matter (ie. that we dislike a certain phrase due to the ways we've heard it used in the past) is somehow wrong.
I can appreciate @ballen0351 feels that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the phrase and that any use of it outside of it's intended context is the fault of whoever is doing this rather than a fundamental fault of the saying. I am happy to accept that this is his opinion and move on but it would make me happy if he would extend me the same courtesy and attempt to empathise with my perspective

 

[Buka]

Well it's a discussion, if you don't like it why are you posting your bitchy reply?

More of an irritable old bastard reply. Just semantics, I suppose.

 

[ballen0351]

Length of the saying doesn't matter, it's an oversimplication as has been mentioned. If it requires more explaining to make sense one way or the other it's an oversimplification. The point of this thread is to analyze common cliches and identify why we find them faulty.

Makes perfect sense to most folks. The length does matter that's what makes it a catch phrase used to prove a point.

Are you really going to tell us 6 years in prison is no big deal?

Compared to death yeah its no big deal

Given the choice, I'd rather just avoid prison and live.

So would everyone else

That's an option too tbat thus cliche ignores. I'm surprised an Leo is so adamant about this. Your job as an Leo is worlds away from what applies to a regular person.

It doesn't ignore anything. As a LEO I live by that motto. Ill do whatever I need to do so I get home to my family

Perhaps consider an alternate viewpoint?

I have and its incorrect

Prison is not a favorable option to death

Are you insane so you would rather die then defend yourself and risk jail time? You can be 100% justified and still end up in prison Innocent folks are sent to jail

, there are more choices to the law abiding citizen who takes the time to train and educate himself.

True and that's your responsibility to do so.

So you're appealing to tradition? "Well we've said it for so many years so it must be right." No, this thread is about questioning tradition and popular culture. It doesn't mAtter how many people say it, no one is beyond question. It doesn't matter how many people you know that share your opinion, this is a discussion about cliche which equates to tradition and common sayings and weather it makes sense when logic is applied.

Im not appealing to anything. 2+2=4 no matter how many times people get it wrong its always 4. Just because a few unknown people on the internet flex their keyboard muscles and use the quote incorrectly doesn't change its meaning

 

[ballen0351]

To be fair, it would be nice to get back on track and return to what this thread was supposed to be about, especially when we clearly have a situation where no-one is going to change anyone else's mind. It's frustrating though to be told that our opinion on what is ultimately a purely subjective matter (ie. that we dislike a certain phrase due to the ways we've heard it used in the past) is somehow wrong.
I can appreciate @ballen0351 feels that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the phrase and that any use of it outside of it's intended context is the fault of whoever is doing this rather than a fundamental fault of the saying. I am happy to accept that this is his opinion and move on but it would make me happy if he would extend me the same courtesy and attempt to empathise with my perspective

I didn't know my opinion matter so much to you. Sorry I don't agree with your opinion so I don't need to hold it on the same level as mine. Just how it works not everyone's opinions are equal.

 

[Reeksta]

I didn't know my opinion matter so much to you. Sorry I don't agree with your opinion so I don't need to hold it on the same level as mine. Just how it works not everyone's opinions are equal.

Apology accepted

 

[Tez3]

I don't think it's just about people's opinions, it's about their experiences which if you question does set backs up. In my experience I haven't heard people use the 'better to be judged....' expression to mean that one should overstep the law. You can't argue with my experience, however much you disagree with my opinion. There's a need to separate experience from opinion.
In my experience and this has happened many times the phrase "you don't look like a martial artist" is usually meant as an insult rather than just an observation. The tones of doubt in the voice is the giveaway, and if you are turning up in civvies to a seminar or to teach somewhere and you get this from martial artists you know it isn't meant well. Doesn't wind me as much as just make me wonder about the questioners' acuity.

 

[Reeksta]

I don't think it's just about people's opinions, it's about their experiences which if you question does set backs up. In my experience I haven't heard people use the 'better to be judged....' expression to mean that one should overstep the law. You can't argue with my experience, however much you disagree with my opinion. There's a need to separate experience from opinion.
In my experience and this has happened many times the phrase "you don't look like a martial artist" is usually meant as an insult rather than just an observation. The tones of doubt in the voice is the giveaway, and if you are turning up in civvies to a seminar or to teach somewhere and you get this from martial artists you know it isn't meant well. Doesn't wind me as much as just make me wonder about the questioners' acuity.

I completely agree with this and would merely point out that it should work both ways. Some of our experiences suggest one thing, some of our experiences suggest another. I don't believe anyone has been accused of lying on this thread and if anything I personally have said has implied this then I apologise

 

[Tez3]

I completely agree with this and would merely point out that it should work both ways. Some of our experiences suggest one thing, some of our experiences suggest another. I don't believe anyone has been accused of lying on this thread and if anything I personally have said has implied this then I apologise

I haven't accused anyone of lying!

 

[ballen0351]

In my experience and this has happened many times the phrase "you don't look like a martial artist" is usually meant as an insult rather than just an observation. .

I get that one a lot its usually followed with "your far to handsome, how do you keep your face so beautiful and train at the same time?"

 

[Reeksta]

I haven't accused anyone of lying!

Please re-read

I don't believe anyone has been accused of lying on this thread and if anything I personally have said has implied this then I apologise

 

[Tez3]

Please re-read

I can't imagine why you brought up 'lying' it was never mentioned nor implied so why mention it in answer to my post?

 

[Reeksta]

it's about their experiences which if you question does set backs up

This implied to me that you felt your experiences had been questioned. I merely wanted to assure you that I wasn't attempting to throw doubt on that

 

[Tez3]

This implied to me that you felt your experiences had been questioned. I merely wanted to assure you that I wasn't attempting to throw doubt on that

Ok no worries, I was talking more generally than me, I tend to do that, try to rationalise what everyone is saying lol, just me.
I do though have some experiences that even I question but this is not the place

 

[Mephisto]

Well, another one that annoys me is the Bruce lee "be like water..." quote. It makes sense in principal, be fluid, change with the situation and adapt. The problem is the guys that have said it to me are out of shape, stiff as a board guys who think they're sharing some profound intellect with me. Often times guys quote Bruce lee as if his writings are biblical. The lee writings are a good resource but everyonr has read them. When people are trying to sound knowledgeable and an authority and assume I haven't read what they've read is what annoys me.