What MA cliches wind you up?

[Mephisto]

It's certainly not the worst advice and certainly no one has come up with anything else that can convey in such a memorable way that you have to do what you must to survive an attack and which will come back to you at the vital moment you need it to!
it's a cliché certainly but the worst thing someone can overdo is falter because they are overthinking what they'd been told to do in such a situation. If you start the 'what if' thing while being attacked (what if I hit him and he falls hits his head and dies........what if I push him and he falls into the road and gets run over....etc etc etc) then you are doomed to be beaten up or worse so a little mantra that says better to be tried by 12 etc is not the worse thing you can think. Unless you are a seasoned 'street fighter' who fights nightly or weekly and have the instincts of Batman so that you need no prompting to defend yourself, it's a useful reminder. People really do freeze in an attack, even martial artists, I've seen it.

It may not be the worst advice but it's not good advice. I don't think people freeze in an attack because they're carefully considering the legal ramifications of their actions. I don't recommend anyone hesitate to react. I'm just saying going to prison shouldn't be considered an option. Life in prison can be considered a fate worse than death for some, either way you're not much use to your family.

For example, I've trained in a class where the technique had you disarming an attacker, throwing him to the ground than stabbing the downed opponent. The technique might be appropriate on a battlefield but the scenario would have very limited situations where it could legally be applied to reality for most people. If someone walks up and sees you stabbing a downed opponent you're asking for trouble. This is the mentality some have when it comes to survive at all costs. Stabbing a downed opponent is not a good idea.

 

[Mephisto]

However the phrase better to be judged etc doesn't mean 'survive at all costs' so much as don't treat this as you would a sparring session in the dojo, use the force you need to stop them which will be (here in the UK) reasonable force and therefore inside the law. You don't bluntly tell students 'survive at all costs' and then just leave it at that, you educate them not just in techniques but the law where you are. All martial artists teaching self defence should know the self defence laws where they are. It's acceptable here to knock someone out because that is reasonable force, kicking them in the head when they are out is not reasonable and therefore illegal, all students learning self defence should know things like that as pertains to them.

I'll agree with you here

 

[ballen0351]

It may not be the worst advice but it's not good advice. I don't think people freeze in an attack because they're carefully considering the legal ramifications of their actions. I don't recommend anyone hesitate to react. I'm just saying going to prison shouldn't be considered an option. Life in prison can be considered a fate worse than death for some, either way you're not much use to your family.

For example, I've trained in a class where the technique had you disarming an attacker, throwing him to the ground than stabbing the downed opponent. The technique might be appropriate on a battlefield but the scenario would have very limited situations where it could legally be applied to reality for most people. If someone walks up and sees you stabbing a downed opponent you're asking for trouble. This is the mentality some have when it comes to survive at all costs. Stabbing a downed opponent is not a good idea.

Except they do. I just showed 2 trained police officers that started running away because they were considering the legal and worse the media response to a use of force. The one officer said she had never been that frightened in her life and she was starting to get tired. So yes if you start giving your students warning after warning after warning they will freeze. You make them afraid they are going to jail of they do something wrong they won't do anything

 

[Danny T]

If you are not teaching your students what's is and isn't appropriate use of force then you shouldn't be teaching them

Agreed. This is one of the major problems I have with so called 'self-defense' programs. Most do not instruct self defense; they instruct fighting. There is far more to self defense than fighting.

Show me any style and I'll show you poor practitioners. It comes down to how the individual is trained and practices what was trained. I'll give that there are some styles that do what I feel is a better job of training individuals but within those styles there will be individuals who are poor and those who are good. It doesn't matter how long you are in a style or what style you are in. It is about how you, the individual, practices. The style doesn't practice the people, the individuals within the style practices.

 

[Reeksta]

All martial artists teaching self defence should know the self defence laws where they are. It's acceptable here to knock someone out because that is reasonable force, kicking them in the head when they are out is not reasonable and therefore illegal, all students learning self defence should know things like that as pertains to them

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. The reason I personally dislike the phrase is because 9 out of 10 times when I hear it, it's to justify an action like kicking them in the head unfortunately

 

[ballen0351]

Stabbing a downed opponent is not a good idea.

If your students are not smart enough to know "judged by 12 then carried by 6" isn't permission to murder someone you shouldn't allow them in your school in the first place. If you don't know the difference between self defense and murder then a cliche isn't going to make much difference

 

[ballen0351]

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. The reason I personally dislike the phrase is because 9 out of 10 times when I hear it, it's to justify an action like kicking them in the head unfortunately

I've never heard it to justify anything like that

 

[Tez3]

It may not be the worst advice but it's not good advice. I don't think people freeze in an attack because they're carefully considering the legal ramifications of their actions. I don't recommend anyone hesitate to react. I'm just saying going to prison shouldn't be considered an option. Life in prison can be considered a fate worse than death for some, either way you're not much use to your family.

For example, I've trained in a class where the technique had you disarming an attacker, throwing him to the ground than stabbing the downed opponent. The technique might be appropriate on a battlefield but the scenario would have very limited situations where it could legally be applied to reality for most people. If someone walks up and sees you stabbing a downed opponent you're asking for trouble. This is the mentality some have when it comes to survive at all costs. Stabbing a downed opponent is not a good idea.

I have seen people freeze in an attack and when asked afterwards they said they were worried about being 'done' because they hurt them to much. It hampers people, that little worm in the head that says 'be careful you might kill them', most people have it, it's a good thing...usually as it stops us being more violent than we are BUT when push comes to shove it does hamper people.

No one is saying that one should stab your attacker, I can't imagine why you think that. On the subject of stabbing someone on the battlefield I can assure you that doing that will more likely get you sent to prison than stabbing an attacker on the street, cases in the US and here have proved that I'm afraid.

 

[Reeksta]

I've never heard it to justify anything like that

Well I have

 

[Mephisto]

If your students are not smart enough to know "judged by 12 then carried by 6" isn't permission to murder someone you shouldn't allow them in your school in the first place. If you don't know the difference between self defense and murder then a cliche isn't going to make much difference

As Reeksta said the saying often accompanied a brutal technique filled with overkill. Instructors like these techniques because they seem to be cows pleasers. People like to feel deadly and invincible. The quote in question typically accompanies this and Is provided as justification. That's my problem.

 

[Tez3]

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. The reason I personally dislike the phrase is because 9 out of 10 times when I hear it, it's to justify an action like kicking them in the head unfortunately

I've never heard it used to justify that either, the instructors including police and military ones I've heard use the phrase to convey that one should defend yourself vigorously with reasonable force which means you can use what means you have to but no more and 'no more' means not kicking them in the head when down.

 

[Tez3]

As Reeksta said the saying often accompanied a brutal technique filled with overkill. Instructors like these techniques because they seem to be cows pleasers. People like to feel deadly and invincible. The quote in question typically accompanies this and Is provided as justification. That's my problem.

I would suggest then that these instructors are very poor and so likely to provide poor instruction as they are clearly not teaching proper self defence techniques if they have to exhort their students to overkill.

 

[Reeksta]

you can use what means you have to but no more

Strikes me that this would be a more sensible phrase to use and one less open to misinterpretation

 

[Tez3]

Strikes me that this would be a more sensible phrase to use and one less open to misinterpretation

I'd hope that any instructor teaching self defence is also discussing more than just techniques so that the students know exactly where they stand. The 'better to be judged' cliché is a cliché because it is easy to remember, it's catchy, it sticks in the mind ( which is probably as much as anything why it is annoying) which in the end serves as a reminder that you really should try to survive an attack! Human beings can cope with anything even prison, concentration camps, torture, abuse all sorts but they have to be alive, that's the important thing...being alive, that's what the cliché is there for to remind them to stay alive.

 

[ballen0351]

As Reeksta said the saying often accompanied a brutal technique filled with overkill. Instructors like these techniques because they seem to be cows pleasers. People like to feel deadly and invincible. The quote in question typically accompanies this and Is provided as justification. That's my problem.

I dont know where you train but I have never had an instructor teach me anything to "please the crowd" Also Ive never taught anyone to use over kill.
What "people like to feel deadly" ?
Ive heard this quote 1000s of times and NEVER in the situations you describe. You may need to find better places to train

 

[ballen0351]

Strikes me that this would be a more sensible phrase to use and one less open to misinterpretation

Seems its only being misinterpreted by a select few

 

[Reeksta]

Seems its only being misinterpreted by a select few

My experience differs

 

[ballen0351]

My experience differs

And? So that makes it ok to make up meanings in a phrase that are not there?

 

[Reeksta]

And? So that makes it ok to make up meanings in a phrase that are not there?

That's not what I said is it. You stated that only a few people were misinterpreting this phrase. I replied that in my experience it is misinterpreted more widely than you suggest

 

[ballen0351]

That's not what I said is it. You stated that only a few people were misinterpreting this phrase. I replied that in my experience it is misinterpreted more widely than you suggest

Yeah the always popular and never accurate 9 out of 10