We all see this discussed in broad strokes. And often people will infer they practice the 'original' style of their art. So, lets list it out. What is the organizational tree of your style? How/when/where/by who did it diverge? Why or why not is it important to you to practice as close to the origin as possible?
What is the Root of Your Style
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isshinryuronin
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Style - isshinryu.
Founder - Shimabuku Tatsuo.
Source - Kyan's shobayashi shorinryu+founder's innovations+some goju.
Organization - American Isshin-do Karate Assoc. (original name), then renamed American Isshinryu Karate Assoc., later known as American Okinawan Karate Assoc., nominal head, Shimabuku. No other branch organizations till after I got black belt (as far as I know).
Divergence - After founder's passing, 2 main branches with his son (Kichiro) and son-in-law (Uezu Angi, who just passed) as heads. Many splinter organizations (along with 9th and 10th dans) since then. But most all follow the traditional isshinryu teachings and forms of the founder. Was very little political friction between them.
I started just one decade after "isshinryu" was officially introduced by Shimabuku so what I learned was pretty much "original." But during the early part of that decade the Master made some very minor adjustments in the kata so his early students (US Marines) brought slightly different versions (all being considered original) back to the USA.
IMO, the closer one remains to the founder's Okinawan concepts of karate the better. I feel more knowledge has been lost than gained since WWII and mass marketing hasn't helped much. Also, loss of contact with the founder's most direct line allows for these concepts to degrade as a rule. While being true to the "old ways" does offer the preservation of TMA history, it more importantly preserves those things (tangible and intangible) that make my art effective and beneficial to study.
This post refers only to my style (technique and history) and my personal feelings. Others, both within my style and from other arts may have their own equally valid opinions and view.
Founder - Shimabuku Tatsuo.
Source - Kyan's shobayashi shorinryu+founder's innovations+some goju.
Organization - American Isshin-do Karate Assoc. (original name), then renamed American Isshinryu Karate Assoc., later known as American Okinawan Karate Assoc., nominal head, Shimabuku. No other branch organizations till after I got black belt (as far as I know).
Divergence - After founder's passing, 2 main branches with his son (Kichiro) and son-in-law (Uezu Angi, who just passed) as heads. Many splinter organizations (along with 9th and 10th dans) since then. But most all follow the traditional isshinryu teachings and forms of the founder. Was very little political friction between them.
I started just one decade after "isshinryu" was officially introduced by Shimabuku so what I learned was pretty much "original." But during the early part of that decade the Master made some very minor adjustments in the kata so his early students (US Marines) brought slightly different versions (all being considered original) back to the USA.
IMO, the closer one remains to the founder's Okinawan concepts of karate the better. I feel more knowledge has been lost than gained since WWII and mass marketing hasn't helped much. Also, loss of contact with the founder's most direct line allows for these concepts to degrade as a rule. While being true to the "old ways" does offer the preservation of TMA history, it more importantly preserves those things (tangible and intangible) that make my art effective and beneficial to study.
This post refers only to my style (technique and history) and my personal feelings. Others, both within my style and from other arts may have their own equally valid opinions and view.
Agree with you. I train under the Mitchum / Harrill lineages. My sensei was a direct student of both, making me a 3rd generation student. I started in 2008 at age 46. I'm a life member of the WUIKA.
It was important to Masters Mitchum and Harrill that his students train what they were themselves taught by Master Shimabuku. We may explore other techniques, interesting bunkai, and so on. We've had students join us from many different styles who have contributed their techniques and knowledge to our diversity and we welcome it; but it's not Isshinryu and we make that very clear; we are Isshinryu students and we stick with what Soke taught to the best of our knowlege.
Some will argue for change over stagnation. Some prefer 'modernization'. That's fine, I hold no brief for them. But it's not my choice.
You're asking about historical roots and lineage, right?
Here goes for BJJ:
The original source of BJJ was Judo, specifically as it existed in the 1920s.
The commonly told story is that BJJ started when Carlos Gracie studied under Mitsuo Maeda (a Judoka and globetrotting prizefighter). Carlos then taught his brothers and the younger of those brothers, Helio Gracie, refined the art to make it more efficient and workable for smaller, weaker practitioners. From there the Gracies popularized their art via challenge matches and eventually the UFC.
This is at best an extreme simplification. There were other Judo instructors active in Brazil at the time. Carlos probably learned mostly from Donato Pires (a student of Maeda's) than directly from Maeda. There were other lineages of BJJ* besides the Gracie family, most notably that of Luiz França. The whole story about Helio single-handedly refining Judo into BJJ was a revisionist boast spread by Helio only after his brothers had passed away.
*(At the time, it wasn't called "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu", but simply "Jiu-jitsu". Apparently that was the term Maeda was using at the time, despite being a Kodokan black belt. Amusingly, later on when more Kodokan Judo practitioners started teaching in Brazil, Helio decried Judo as a watered-down fraud intended to deceive non-Japanese and declared that the Jiu-Jitsu taught by his own family was the original samurai Jiu-jitsu. This was before he made his claims of having single-handedly refined Judo into something new and better.)
At the start, there is no indication that Carlos or any of the other BJJ pioneers had any significant rank in Judo or direct connection back to the Kodokan. Carlos probably had no more than a couple of years training under Pires or Maeda and there is no evidence that he was awarded any rank at all. What these pioneers (notably Carlos Gracie, George Gracie, and Helio Gracie, but also Luiz França and Oswaldo Fadda) did was to fill in the gaps in their knowledge and experience with constant sparring practice, challenge matches, and picking the brains** of practitioners from related arts such as catch wrestling, lutra livre, Greco-Roman, Sambo, etc. This continued into the next generation (with the most accomplished BJJ fighter being Carlson Gracie Sr. ) and the next one after that (with the most accomplished fighters being first Rolls Gracie and then Rickson Gracie after Rolls' untimely death.) This hands-on experimental development resulted in an art which was closely related to Judo, but clearly distinct. Important differences included a much greater focus on newaza, a simplified approach to takedowns, fighting both with and without the gi, and a greater focus on using and dealing with strikes.
**(This brain-picking could take happen through friendly cross-training, study of fight opponents, or even reading books. Over the last couple of decades, study of video, both instructional and fight footage, has become another important avenue for the spread of knowledge.)
After the advent of the UFC and modern MMA, Brazilian Jiujitsu became popular worldwide. As the number of practitioners skyrocketed, most of the top instructors, fighters, and tournament competitors were no longer members of the Gracie family. (Although most could trace their lineage back to a Gracie family member within a couple of steps.) As the community of practitioners has become larger and larger, information has become more freely disseminated, and techniques continued to be tested in competition, there has been ongoing innovation within the art. This includes not just the invention of new techniques and tactics, but also ongoing refinement of fundamentals. A large part of the basics I learned 25 years ago are no longer considered "best practices" in terms of effectiveness.
It should be noted that not all of this evolution is universally accepted. A significant part of it is concerned with tactics within the modern ruleset of sport BJJ, which does not include striking and has a particular approach to scoring. Some old-school practitioners believe that this detracts from the real-world combative effectiveness of the art. However much of it is directly applicable to a more combative context. Improvements have been made to the mechanical efficiency of fundamental techniques, and tactics which are very applicable to a fight context (such as getting up rather than choosing to stay on the ground) are being emphasized more. Also, from an historical standpoint it should be noted that every generation of BJJ competitors, going back to Carlos and Helio Gracie, has participated in pure grappling events and not just in Vale Tudo/MMA fights.
As you should deduce from the above, there is no single founder of BJJ and no central organizing authority. Nor has the art ever had a static, standardized form. The closest I (or anyone else) could say that I come to the "original" form of the art is that I still practice it as primarily as a martial art for fighting and only secondarily as a combat sport for tournament competition. I can list my lineage back to the beginning of the art: Carlos Gracie -> Carlson Gracie Sr. -> Carlson Gracie Jr. -> Mike O'Donnell -> me. But that's just the chain of rank promotions. In reality, my knowledge of the art comes from all corners of the BJJ community, including people outside the Carlson Gracie lineage, peers, students, and practitioners of other arts such as Judo, wrestling, and Sambo.
Here goes for BJJ:
The original source of BJJ was Judo, specifically as it existed in the 1920s.
The commonly told story is that BJJ started when Carlos Gracie studied under Mitsuo Maeda (a Judoka and globetrotting prizefighter). Carlos then taught his brothers and the younger of those brothers, Helio Gracie, refined the art to make it more efficient and workable for smaller, weaker practitioners. From there the Gracies popularized their art via challenge matches and eventually the UFC.
This is at best an extreme simplification. There were other Judo instructors active in Brazil at the time. Carlos probably learned mostly from Donato Pires (a student of Maeda's) than directly from Maeda. There were other lineages of BJJ* besides the Gracie family, most notably that of Luiz França. The whole story about Helio single-handedly refining Judo into BJJ was a revisionist boast spread by Helio only after his brothers had passed away.
*(At the time, it wasn't called "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu", but simply "Jiu-jitsu". Apparently that was the term Maeda was using at the time, despite being a Kodokan black belt. Amusingly, later on when more Kodokan Judo practitioners started teaching in Brazil, Helio decried Judo as a watered-down fraud intended to deceive non-Japanese and declared that the Jiu-Jitsu taught by his own family was the original samurai Jiu-jitsu. This was before he made his claims of having single-handedly refined Judo into something new and better.)
At the start, there is no indication that Carlos or any of the other BJJ pioneers had any significant rank in Judo or direct connection back to the Kodokan. Carlos probably had no more than a couple of years training under Pires or Maeda and there is no evidence that he was awarded any rank at all. What these pioneers (notably Carlos Gracie, George Gracie, and Helio Gracie, but also Luiz França and Oswaldo Fadda) did was to fill in the gaps in their knowledge and experience with constant sparring practice, challenge matches, and picking the brains** of practitioners from related arts such as catch wrestling, lutra livre, Greco-Roman, Sambo, etc. This continued into the next generation (with the most accomplished BJJ fighter being Carlson Gracie Sr. ) and the next one after that (with the most accomplished fighters being first Rolls Gracie and then Rickson Gracie after Rolls' untimely death.) This hands-on experimental development resulted in an art which was closely related to Judo, but clearly distinct. Important differences included a much greater focus on newaza, a simplified approach to takedowns, fighting both with and without the gi, and a greater focus on using and dealing with strikes.
**(This brain-picking could take happen through friendly cross-training, study of fight opponents, or even reading books. Over the last couple of decades, study of video, both instructional and fight footage, has become another important avenue for the spread of knowledge.)
After the advent of the UFC and modern MMA, Brazilian Jiujitsu became popular worldwide. As the number of practitioners skyrocketed, most of the top instructors, fighters, and tournament competitors were no longer members of the Gracie family. (Although most could trace their lineage back to a Gracie family member within a couple of steps.) As the community of practitioners has become larger and larger, information has become more freely disseminated, and techniques continued to be tested in competition, there has been ongoing innovation within the art. This includes not just the invention of new techniques and tactics, but also ongoing refinement of fundamentals. A large part of the basics I learned 25 years ago are no longer considered "best practices" in terms of effectiveness.
It should be noted that not all of this evolution is universally accepted. A significant part of it is concerned with tactics within the modern ruleset of sport BJJ, which does not include striking and has a particular approach to scoring. Some old-school practitioners believe that this detracts from the real-world combative effectiveness of the art. However much of it is directly applicable to a more combative context. Improvements have been made to the mechanical efficiency of fundamental techniques, and tactics which are very applicable to a fight context (such as getting up rather than choosing to stay on the ground) are being emphasized more. Also, from an historical standpoint it should be noted that every generation of BJJ competitors, going back to Carlos and Helio Gracie, has participated in pure grappling events and not just in Vale Tudo/MMA fights.
As you should deduce from the above, there is no single founder of BJJ and no central organizing authority. Nor has the art ever had a static, standardized form. The closest I (or anyone else) could say that I come to the "original" form of the art is that I still practice it as primarily as a martial art for fighting and only secondarily as a combat sport for tournament competition. I can list my lineage back to the beginning of the art: Carlos Gracie -> Carlson Gracie Sr. -> Carlson Gracie Jr. -> Mike O'Donnell -> me. But that's just the chain of rank promotions. In reality, my knowledge of the art comes from all corners of the BJJ community, including people outside the Carlson Gracie lineage, peers, students, and practitioners of other arts such as Judo, wrestling, and Sambo.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jianhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chien > My Shifu > Me
As for Xingyiquan, it is all over the map.... so I will go with style in order I took them: Hebei, Shang, Hebei, Wudang, Hebei, Shanxi.
There is also Wing Chun, that would have a more direct lineage, however I don't really consider myself part of that lineage at this time. But it all goes back to Ip Man
There are other styles I have trained (Baguazhang, Chen Taijiquan), but again, I am not in any lineage and it is all over the map
As for Xingyiquan, it is all over the map.... so I will go with style in order I took them: Hebei, Shang, Hebei, Wudang, Hebei, Shanxi.
There is also Wing Chun, that would have a more direct lineage, however I don't really consider myself part of that lineage at this time. But it all goes back to Ip Man
There are other styles I have trained (Baguazhang, Chen Taijiquan), but again, I am not in any lineage and it is all over the map
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windwalker099
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Empirical based taiji, theory and usage
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
and other noted masters of taiji.
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
and other noted masters of taiji.
Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao): Chang Fong-Yen -> Chang Tung Sheng -> me
Long fist: Han Cheng-Tang -> Li Mao-Ching -> me
Picture of GM Chang Fong-Yen:
Long fist: Han Cheng-Tang -> Li Mao-Ching -> me
Picture of GM Chang Fong-Yen:
In order to keep this brief - in our version of American Karate we basically steal everything from you guys.
Our organizational tree has so many branches - raking the leaves is a serious pain in the Ash. (see what I did there?)
Our organizational tree has so many branches - raking the leaves is a serious pain in the Ash. (see what I did there?)
Well, in the case of the American Bando Association's training...
Dr. Gyi brought Bando to the US in the 60s. I'm fortunate enough to have trained under one of his earliest students. So I can pretty confidently state that I trained pretty close to the source...
As to the material that was taught.... That's changed over the years a bit. Dr. Gyi's training and upbringing was challenging, and covered many different aspects of the Burmese martial arts. His father had used his government position and authority to gather many of the indigenous martial arts together and systemize them to preserve and share them. In the 60s, Dr. Gyi taught a "modified form of the Bando Discipline" that was more similar to the karate styles practiced in the US at the time. He also introduced a modified form of lethwei or Burmese Boxing. Over the years, Dr. Gyi introduced naban (grappling) systems, as well as a system of yoga-like stretching and strengthening exercises, and the Animal and Weapon-hand systems, as well as other elements.
So, going back to the origins... The system I learned has its roots in the indigenous arts of Burma, which were influenced by the arts of Nepal, India, and Japan over the years. Many reflect regional solutions to the questions of how to defend yourself and stay safe, inspired by the spirit and movements of various animals. Others contain principles from the ancient Pyu and Pagan kingdoms warriors. These were all gathered and systemized and preserved by the (Burmese) National Bando Association in the 1940s. There are other approaches still extant in Myanmar (modern day Burma), as well.
Dr. Gyi brought Bando to the US in the 60s. I'm fortunate enough to have trained under one of his earliest students. So I can pretty confidently state that I trained pretty close to the source...
As to the material that was taught.... That's changed over the years a bit. Dr. Gyi's training and upbringing was challenging, and covered many different aspects of the Burmese martial arts. His father had used his government position and authority to gather many of the indigenous martial arts together and systemize them to preserve and share them. In the 60s, Dr. Gyi taught a "modified form of the Bando Discipline" that was more similar to the karate styles practiced in the US at the time. He also introduced a modified form of lethwei or Burmese Boxing. Over the years, Dr. Gyi introduced naban (grappling) systems, as well as a system of yoga-like stretching and strengthening exercises, and the Animal and Weapon-hand systems, as well as other elements.
So, going back to the origins... The system I learned has its roots in the indigenous arts of Burma, which were influenced by the arts of Nepal, India, and Japan over the years. Many reflect regional solutions to the questions of how to defend yourself and stay safe, inspired by the spirit and movements of various animals. Others contain principles from the ancient Pyu and Pagan kingdoms warriors. These were all gathered and systemized and preserved by the (Burmese) National Bando Association in the 1940s. There are other approaches still extant in Myanmar (modern day Burma), as well.
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