What is the lowest age you except for your adult classes and why?

[JowGaWolf]

It really depends how classes are run. In many cases “adult” refers to the classes not for small kids (rather than actual adulthood).

Motor skills play a big part and attention span play a big part in deciding what is an adult class vs what is a kids class.

 

[MetalBoar]

I've had this happen in both TKD schools and my BJJ school that there is no separation between teens and adults, but it's a "teen and adult class". In all of those, fitness has been a goal, but not as a replacement for learning martial arts.

I'm not sure what to say to this and your disagreement with my post, it seems like you're trying to say that I haven't experienced what I've experienced. As I said, I've discovered that there are some schools that have "teen and adult" classes that seem to do a good job with them. They have a lot of students in their 20's and 30's and older students too, as well as teens. But there are also a lot of schools that have a couple or few middle aged parents and a bunch of jr. high and high school students. I've seen a lot of the latter when "adults" means 13+. There's generally a reason these schools aren't filled with adults or even a lot of new teen age students.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

In our Kenpo Karate studio teens and adult are together so the youngest is 14 years old and the oldest his 80 and a white belt

 

[MetalBoar]

That 15 to 16 age group is good for getting teens into a more mature perspective about their training. Teens and adults often have misconceptions about each other. This helps to break those barriers.

Young people often don't like doing things with Old folks. I've found that martial arts is often the exception.

So, when I was really into fencing I helped teach a lot of kids, including elementary age kids, fencing. I've helped a few friends teach their kids how to play D&D and other ttrpgs. I've trained kids as young as 11 when I owned a strength training gym. When I worked retail briefly, after the pandemic killed our gym, my wife and I hosted a regular board game night for our co-workers, many of whom were in their early to mid 20's. I don't have a problem interacting with kids, teens or young adults, and I don't have a problem with helping them develop their martial arts skills. That doesn't mean I want to train exclusively in a class that is predominately jr. high and high school students, especially if it's tailored to that demographic.

 

[skribs]

I'm not sure what to say to this and your disagreement with my post, it seems like you're trying to say that I haven't experienced what I've experienced. As I said, I've discovered that there are some schools that have "teen and adult" classes that seem to do a good job with them. They have a lot of students in their 20's and 30's and older students too, as well as teens. But there are also a lot of schools that have a couple or few middle aged parents and a bunch of jr. high and high school students. I've seen a lot of the latter when "adults" means 13+. There's generally a reason these schools aren't filled with adults or even a lot of new teen age students.

I was disagreeing with your assessment. I was also disagreeing that your experience is universal. As I said, I haven't found that at all. Your post makes it sound like any school that has a Teen + Adult class is just for wannabes and mall ninjas. I vehemently wanted to refute that inference.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, when I was really into fencing I helped teach a lot of kids, including elementary age kids, fencing. I've helped a few friends teach their kids how to play D&D and other ttrpgs. I've trained kids as young as 11 when I owned a strength training gym. When I worked retail briefly, after the pandemic killed our gym, my wife and I hosted a regular board game night for our co-workers, many of whom were in their early to mid 20's. I don't have a problem interacting with kids, teens or young adults, and I don't have a problem with helping them develop their martial arts skills. That doesn't mean I want to train exclusively in a class that is predominately jr. high and high school students, especially if it's tailored to that demographic.

I'm with you on that about adult classes being tailored for teens. Teens have to step up their game adults shouldn't have to math their maturity level. Like when high school football players go to college. They have to step up their game. Imagine if college coaches based their program on high-school level.

 

[MetalBoar]

I was disagreeing with your assessment. I was also disagreeing that your experience is universal. As I said, I haven't found that at all. Your post makes it sound like any school that has a Teen + Adult class is just for wannabes and mall ninjas. I vehemently wanted to refute that inference.

I apologize for any implication that your school(s) have been lacking in any way. I have no experience with them whatsoever and couldn't even begin to speak knowledgably about them. Your posts usually seem to be well informed and you seem to have solid experience with MA, so I have always assumed that they were of reasonable or better quality.

Please note that I specifically said:

Now, I've heard @Buka describe his school before and talk about how I'm missing out on good schools if I dismiss every MA studio that is structured like this, and he's right. The way he describes his school, if I could train with him in that environment, I'd definitely give it a try. Before I started with my current MA I checked out a karate school nearby that had a mix of 16+ years olds and adults in their adult class that seemed pretty good.

I do stand by the substance of my original post. In my experience, a large percentage of schools that advertise "adult" classes or "teen and adult" classes that include 13+ y.o. students are often focused on the youth demographic, have classes that are more tailored to adolescents, and tend to have far fewer participating adults than schools that have an actual adult, adults class. I find that when this is the case the school is a poor fit for me. There are exceptions, and as I said, I'm sure there are some very good schools out there that include 13+ year olds in their adult classes and I'm sure that I would enjoy training at many of them.

 

[GojuTommy]

I apologize for any implication that your school(s) have been lacking in any way. I have no experience with them whatsoever and couldn't even begin to speak knowledgably about them. Your posts usually seem to be well informed and you seem to have solid experience with MA, so I have always assumed that they were of reasonable or better quality.

Please note that I specifically said:


I do stand by the substance of my original post. In my experience, a large percentage of schools that advertise "adult" classes or "teen and adult" classes that include 13+ y.o. students are often focused on the youth demographic, have classes that are more tailored to adolescents, and tend to have far fewer participating adults than schools that have an actual adult, adults class. I find that when this is the case the school is a poor fit for me. There are exceptions, and as I said, I'm sure there are some very good schools out there that include 13+ year olds in their adult classes and I'm sure that I would enjoy training at many of them.

I’d advise making this the last reply to him on this topic.
Not because of him(I don’t pay enough attention to who says what on these forums to really remember who has said what or know their typical posting habits) but because in general he seems to be displaying a very common defensiveness involved with schools or gyms that train a certain way.

 

[skribs]

I’d advise making this the last reply to him on this topic.
Not because of him(I don’t pay enough attention to who says what on these forums to really remember who has said what or know their typical posting habits) but because in general he seems to be displaying a very common defensiveness involved with schools or gyms that train a certain way.

What are you doing on a martial arts forum if you don't want people to defend themselves?

Like I said, my experience is both with TKD and BJJ, which are very different in how they train. In fact, the schools are polar opposites of each other in their training methodology.

It's very clear you didn't pay enough attention to what I wrote. Maybe you should pay attention before you try to argue.

 

[GojuTommy]

What are you doing on a martial arts forum if you don't want people to defend themselves?

Like I said, my experience is both with TKD and BJJ, which are very different in how they train. In fact, the schools are polar opposites of each other in their training methodology.

It's very clear you didn't pay enough attention to what I wrote. Maybe you should pay attention before you try to argue.

Lol he never attacked you so there’s nothing to defend yourself against.

I read everything you posted, yet it makes no difference. Try not getting so butthurt over things that you claim don’t apply to you or your school.

 

[skribs]

Lol he never attacked you so there’s nothing to defend yourself against.

I read everything you posted, yet it makes no difference. Try not getting so butthurt over things that you claim don’t apply to you or your school.

Again, that's not what I claimed. His comments did apply to my schools, because they were about schools in which teens and adults are allowed in the same class.

Are you being willfully ignorant, or is you reading comprehension just this bad?

 

[GojuTommy]

Again, that's not what I claimed. His comments did apply to my schools, because they were about schools in which teens and adults are allowed in the same class.

Are you being willfully ignorant, or is you reading comprehension just this bad?

But you claim the substance of those classes are not what he said, so it doesn’t apply.

you’re insecure and that’s why you’re so focused on defending your school online to strangers who don’t know you or your school.

Like I said your reaction is the exact reaction I expected, and this is the last I’ll be responding to you, because your only goal is to defend against attacks that never occurred.

 

[skribs]

But you claim the substance of those classes are not what he said, so it doesn’t apply.

If someone makes a claim that schools that have teen and adult classes are low-quality schools, then someone looks at a school and sees they have teen and adult classes, their thoughts are going to be "I read that these are low-quality schools."

I am writing a counterpoint to dispel that notion.

The fact that what he says does not apply to my school is the argument I am making. And, by extension, there are also many other schools that id does not apply to. So that when someone looks at a school and sees teen and adult classes, they have more than just "These are low quality schools", because it may not apply to them also.

If I were to make a statement like "redheads are dumb", and then there was an intelligent redhead who got offended, could I say, "well obviously since you're smart, the comment doesn't apply to you." No, the statement would be offensive, and he is lumped into the insult.

Unless the people reading these comments are supposed to be psychic and know which schools are good despite the claims? Or are supposed to know when his advice applies or not? I'm very curious what super powers you think the average person has that they would know that his advice doesn't apply to good schools that also fit the criteria he described.

Like I said your reaction is the exact reaction I expected, and this is the last I’ll be responding to you, because your only goal is to defend against attacks that never occurred.

I recently learned a term which is a perfect description of what you're doing: crybullying. You purposefully make offensive statements and then act like the other person is irrational for being offended. Because this tactic is built on a lie (and you continued to lie in the post I just quoted), I can't wait to hear from you again.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Stop the sniping. Keep the conversation polite and professional, or there will be warnings and suspensions.

@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

 

[J. Pickard]

What is required for advancement has no bearing on this discussion

100% disagree. The curriculum is the number one thing that affects what is taught and in turn, how it's taught. Simple concepts you can teach the exact same way at a certain age. The concept of a basic front kick is simple enough that you can teach it the exact same way to anyone 10 or older and nobody is getting "the short end of the stick". There is no secret trick or explanation that a 30 year old would get that a 10 year old couldn't also understand. On the flip side, teaching a tactical shooting course, or a rape prevention course is probably not the best choice for minors.

the way you should teach a 12 year old is not the same as a 16 yr old which is not the same as a 20 yr old, which is not the same as a 30 yr old.

You over estimate exactly how different the brain of an adolescent/teen is vs a young adult actually is. When trying to help a student learn what we are talking about is cognitive and physical ability and there is virtually no difference in cognitive ability between say a 16 year old and a 20 year old. As far as physical ability goes, most 8-year-olds are developed enough to do anything an adult can do, they just lack the strength and the only time that should really matter is partner work or the length of the exercise as kids will get tired before teens but has no bearing on the ability to learn.

 

[GojuTommy]

100% disagree. The curriculum is the number one thing that affects what is taught and in turn, how it's taught. Simple concepts you can teach the exact same way at a certain age. The concept of a basic front kick is simple enough that you can teach it the exact same way to anyone 10 or older and nobody is getting "the short end of the stick". There is no secret trick or explanation that a 30 year old would get that a 10 year old couldn't also understand. On the flip side, teaching a tactical shooting course, or a rape prevention course is probably not the best choice for minors.


You over estimate exactly how different the brain of an adolescent/teen is vs a young adult actually is. When trying to help a student learn what we are talking about is cognitive and physical ability and there is virtually no difference in cognitive ability between say a 16 year old and a 20 year old. As far as physical ability goes, most 8-year-olds are developed enough to do anything an adult can do, they just lack the strength and the only time that should really matter is partner work or the length of the exercise as kids will get tired before teens but has no bearing on the ability to learn.

You can disagree, that’s your right, but the science of learning and teaching says that different age groups have different ways they learn most effectively.

 

[J. Pickard]

You can disagree, that’s your right, but the science of learning and teaching says that different age groups have different ways they learn most effectively.

Yes, based on stages of development as I stated. Essentially what I am saying is that there are certain aspects of a martial arts class that hit their limit of complexity at about the point a 10 year old can understand them. To put it in different terms, If I gave a booklet to a 14 year old and a 22 year old that gave instructions on how to mix paint colors to get the full spectrum of colors it would only need to be one booklet. There would be nothing written in it that would be too complex for a 14 year old and the 22 year old isn't missing any information. The booklet could be worded exactly the same and the same information can be understood provided the individuals could read. To put it back into the Martial arts, there is nothing about many basic concepts that can't be taught to a 12 year old the same way as a 30 year old because of how simple the concepts are. Additionally from 15 to early 20s the way people learn is nearly indistinguishable outside of social pressures. The concept of different age groups having different ways of learning is based on what they are currently lacking in brain development. By age 14-15 the brain is fully formed (over simplified, but mostly accurate) with the exception of connections to the prefrontal lobe which doesn't actually pick up in development until early 20s. If your argument is that only people who are mentally full adults should be in an adult class then your adult class shouldn't even consider taking students that are under 22. The functionality of the brain of a 15 year old is nearly indistinguishable from a 20 year old with one exception; emotional insecurities are usually at their peak around this age until 17-18.

 

[GojuTommy]

Yes, based on stages of development as I stated. Essentially what I am saying is that there are certain aspects of a martial arts class that hit their limit of complexity at about the point a 10 year old can understand them. To put it in different terms, If I gave a booklet to a 14 year old and a 22 year old that gave instructions on how to mix paint colors to get the full spectrum of colors it would only need to be one booklet. There would be nothing written in it that would be too complex for a 14 year old and the 22 year old isn't missing any information. The booklet could be worded exactly the same and the same information can be understood provided the individuals could read. To put it back into the Martial arts, there is nothing about many basic concepts that can't be taught to a 12 year old the same way as a 30 year old because of how simple the concepts are. Additionally from 15 to early 20s the way people learn is nearly indistinguishable outside of social pressures. The concept of different age groups having different ways of learning is based on what they are currently lacking in brain development. By age 14-15 the brain is fully formed (over simplified, but mostly accurate) with the exception of connections to the prefrontal lobe which doesn't actually pick up in development until early 20s. If your argument is that only people who are mentally full adults should be in an adult class then your adult class shouldn't even consider taking students that are under 22. The functionality of the brain of a 15 year old is nearly indistinguishable from a 20 year old with one exception; emotional insecurities are usually at their peak around this age until 17-18.

It’s not about complexity. There are different methods of teaching the exact same material that will be more effective if tailored to the student’s age and development level.

Nothing in martial arts is particularly complex at all(though some people love to try and make it that way.)

Developmental stages aren’t an on/off binary, they’re a spectrum that people move along at various rates, and speeds, so no just because a developmental stage includes a 6 or 8 year time period does not mean that everyone in that age range is at the same developmental place.

You can use and give the same booklet to a 12 yr old and they can learn to mix paint.
You really are missing the point by a country mile.

 

[Rich Parsons]

As the title says, what is the lowest age you except for your adult classes and why?

Traditionally 16 as they can be tried as an adult in our state.
I have gone below that , and that limit is 12, yet one the parents has to be present for all classes , the complete class.
Also if married, then both parents must sign waiver.
If divorced, then both parents, and step/bonus parents must also sign , and if they spend on average one night a week with a grandparent then grandparents need to sign.
.
And, not one family as gotten all the signatures , as one of they goes NO , I do not want him/her in a martial arts class.
And that is why I ask for all those signatures as one of the parents / or guardian types disagrees they could bring suit.
.
Why am I concerned? I start with Rattan canes / sticks first in the adult class.
Children or young adults make impulse decisions. Accidents happen. And parents get upset when a young person is injured even if there is no permanent injuries. (* Not saying parents should not be worried or upset with an injury, I acknowledge the fact, and act accordingly. *)

 

[Flying Crane]

Traditionally 16 as they can be tried as an adult in our state.
I have gone below that , and that limit is 12, yet one the parents has to be present for all classes , the complete class.
Also if married, then both parents must sign waiver.
If divorced, then both parents, and step/bonus parents must also sign , and if they spend on average one night a week with a grandparent then grandparents need to sign.
.
And, not one family as gotten all the signatures , as one of they goes NO , I do not want him/her in a martial arts class.
And that is why I ask for all those signatures as one of the parents / or guardian types disagrees they could bring suit.
.
Why am I concerned? I start with Rattan canes / sticks first in the adult class.
Children or young adults make impulse decisions. Accidents happen. And parents get upset when a young person is injured even if there is no permanent injuries. (* Not saying parents should not be worried or upset with an injury, I acknowledge the fact, and act accordingly. *)

To be clear however, a signed waiver in no way prevents someone from suing you, and if they can prove negligence, they will win. If you win, likely you will still need to pay your own legal fees. If you acted maliciously or criminally and injured someone, you can be criminally prosecuted as well. A waiver certainly is not a free license to act like an a-hole with impunity.

A liability waiver is a useful tool because it shows that the participant was aware of the chance of injury connected to the training. So if they sue you, the court will take that into consideration and might be more inclined to side with you, if it seems like you are being sued for a legitimate accident. It becomes one of the tools you can use in your legal defense.

This is why all instructors should carry liability insurance.