What is Systema?

[erich]

Rob's "why systema" thread put these question in my mind. Pandoras box??

Is systema the same thing as Ryabko style? Meaning, is he the single living source of "systema"? Does he have any systema peers? Are there others out there, who Ryabko has not trained, that teach "systema"?

What is systema?

 

[Larry]

In regular North American parlance, Systema has come to refer pretty exclusively to the style of Russian martial art as headed by Mikhail Ryabko and as taught by Vladimir Vasiliev in Toronto.

The style of Russian martial art headed by Gen. Ruitinski (sp?) has generally become known as ROSS, while the style of Russian martial art headed by Kadoshnikov has become known as K-Sys or the Kadoshnikov system.

 

[arnisador]

Thoughts on Systema:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=214887

 

[Arthur]

Well that's an interesting thread for no other reason than to observe a bunch of people disregarding every convention and courtesy they would like seen applied to their own art.

Any one involved in martial art for any length of time should be able to see through the comments made there. So many comments made by people who have never trained in the system, so many posts by one man who attempts to speak with authority about his experiences with the System even though he hasn't attended two full classes.

The Thread then ends with a list of 3 video clips, presented by a guy WHO is hiding his identity. He then makes ascertains about the clips that have no foundation in terms of the context of what is being presented. One of the clips in question I have Sound knowledge of as I filmed it. More on that later.

The first 2 clips are referenced with remarks such as:

Tell me if people really attack the way depicted in the videos or react the way that they do. Ask yourself if the techniques depicted look like something you could do to a real life attacker.and practical do they look:

These are comments that come on a FMA based forum. Talk about audacity. Tell me Sumbrada or Siniwali, orNumerado are indicative of how someone will "attack" in a real life encounter! Is carenza a real fight even though there is only one of you? Oh, what? they are only training drills?!?!

Need I really say more... How dare people with more "training drills" than any other art.... chastise, criticize and make unfounded accusations about that Which is analogous to exactly what they do.

The third clip, which I filmed! I can tell you this. the man attacking is one of the most resistant partners I've come across in any art. The takedowns are real. It was a drill, only grabs were allowed, the clip was edited to show some of the more interesting movements, but its all very real. The same woman in those clips volunteered to work with the Iowa State police force and accomplished the same types of movements against trained police officers and nationally ranked collegiate wrestlers. I've seen her tie up and subdue multiple professionals by herself.

She can group a bevy of bullets in a small cicumfrence at any range, and hit harder than the majority of people who wear a blackbelt. She's one of the first people I'd choose for my "team" if push came to ****, and I pitty the person who can't see the value in that.

Arthur Sennott

 

[arnisador]

That forum has a wealth of knowledge on making bladed weapons, but I have found many of their discussions of martial arts to be...not overly burdened by fact and insight.

It's not their specialty, I suppose--they're knifemakers and knife collectors more than knife users, if I understand correctly.

 

[NYCRonin]

I will agree with Arthur here.
First, vid clips are a double edge blade - they can be informative IF you have the eyes to see and take the clips in context. They are also 'frozen in time' and provide alot of 'what if' material for those who wish to criticize.
Systema seems to provide a certain paradox for those who only know it superficially - by clips or a class or two. 'It' doesnt fit the conventional mold of MArts - not the oriental ones, at least. Seeing it through those eyes - it cant work. Then, when given the chance to 'do the work' with an experienced Systema-ist; the effectiveness is clear. Now, the diehard (convinced that their chosen method is 'right' - and excludes the possibliity that other methods being as effective as theirs (self-image protection)) - they have a choice. Either to admit their bias was incorrect OR to state 'well, he can make it work BUT...'. This allows them to return to their protected world view, convinced of their initial ideas.

The only other choice is to learn some Systema (if not concentrate on it alone) and add it to their body of knowledge.

I dont care either way, personally. I answer questions on forums (at times), I invite people to experience it for themselves. Then, AND ONLY THEN; can one claim to be able to express an opinion from a point of experience -- and that is the only opinion I feel has value.
I can look at, say; Hsing-I and 'believe' that it is not as effective as, say; JKD. Until I have experienced them both - any opinion is not grounded in experience - they are words alone, an opinion without background, without substance -- just a belief.

The guys from blade forum - well, I run into them on the other forums. SOME of them do seem to have valid MArt experience - most notably FMA, Ninjutsu and Wing Chun. I KNOW this because I HAVE trained in these methods over the course of my 'martial study'. They post with an understanding of terminology, with observations; that verify this to me. Again, this is based on my actual training experience in these arts - not on 'belief'.

2 of these arts - as Arthur mentioned - are very 'drill' oriented, and if someone without knowledge of those 2 watched the drills using their 'criteria of criticizm'; that someone would probably express the same 'doesnt look realistic/effective to me' view.

The funny thing about this is - there are many blade forum guys who can actually experience 'Systema' first hand, from the best in the business. The NY guys could come to NYC during one of the seminars offered by FightHouse in Manhattan - I know there is one in February with Martin Wheeler and, I believe; June will see Vladimir Vasilieve doing a seminar there. They could experience the System there and their future posts would carry more weight. I hope to be there in June and could help them with understanding our methodology. I would be glad to do so.

I will leave with two very true bits of wisdom:
"You can lead a mind to knowledge...but you cant make it think".

"Do not seek out 'the knowing'...seek out 'the experienced', instead".

 

[Furtry]

Originally posted by arnisador
That forum has a wealth of knowledge on making bladed weapons, but I have found many of their discussions of martial arts to be...not overly burdened by fact and insight.

It's not their specialty, I suppose--they're knifemakers and knife collectors more than knife users, if I understand correctly.

Sort of like profesors... All theory no substance:shrug:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Furtry
Sort of like profesors... All theory no substance

Ouch! (I'm a college professor.) But, I get what you mean--I think there's a conceit that the craftsman or engineer who knows how to design a weapon has some sort of inside knowledge of its use. On the one hand I'm sure that there are a great many senses in which that is true--but, while I can't always tell a tang from a fuller, I do think that I know a bit about weilding a knife that isn't apparent from a knowledge of its component parts!

 

[Gaucho]

NYCRonin...I love that second pearl, "Don't seek out the knowing. Seek out the experienced instead." That really says it all.

MA discussions on Bladeforums are a complete waste of time and energy- have been for a long while now.

Mario

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
Ouch! (I'm a college professor.) But, I get what you mean--I think there's a conceit that the craftsman or engineer who knows how to design a weapon has some sort of inside knowledge of its use. On the one hand I'm sure that there are a great many senses in which that is true--but, while I can't always tell a tang from a fuller, I do think that I know a bit about weilding a knife that isn't apparent from a knowledge of its component parts!

Not sure what the difference between a tang and a fuller is, yet I know enough about knife fighting to respect the blade and I think I know enough about Martial Arts to ask questions about things I do not understand in a respectful manner. After seeing some clips, myself, I asked a person I knew personally who trained in systema about the clips and demo aspect or application aspect. So, A healthy skepticism is fine on one hand until you have enough data to make a point, yet out right insulting behavior, is not what I would like to see here or else where.

As to Professors versus Applciations Engineers, I have two stories from the field for you Arni . Argueing with two PHD's about how transmissions fluids and electronics work. They had all the data to show it would work. If you had instantaneous transfer or electrons and flow fills of the fluids at the warm operating temperature. It was nice, to seem them go back and run theri similations again after I gave them real life data. Second, was a nice young lady. She had received her BA in Mathematics, and MS in Physics and PhD in Electrical Engineer. She could not put together one of those halogen lamps on the polls. Yes the ones with everything connected, all you needed to do was screw it together. My brother took her into the Kitchen to make some coffee, when they came out he introduced meas the applications engineer, and she just smiled and said thank you for coming over, because she just could not get it. (* Just to let everyone know that I cannot spell, so the brick I throw are also at my glass house, as I can see where I am week. *)

Theory is nice. It should be tested and see if the theory needs to be adjusted or or modified, or cast aside for a new one.


I had not been to the Blade Forums in a long while, I had not realized this was the case over there.

 

[Jay Bell]

I get asked pretty often what Systema is about. So through my ramblings I'll show some clips. It always makes me chuckle, because typically the response is pretty similar, no matter who it is:

"That's pretty kewl! Weak knife attacks though..."



Last time I checked, the majority of martial arts that I've witnessed had kata, forms, techniques and drills that "weren't applicable at all" in a street fight. Yet...they teach you principles to carry on into the real world.

 

[Josh]

I personally thought it was funny in how that guy doubted Jennifer Fay. And i don't even know her. Geez. I don't know how they fixed this art up into what it is now. Like as arts grow older, they lose their what is it, you get a decrease in the original concepts of the art.

But with Systema, it looks to me that it just gets better and better. You can totally mold and mix it up with your other skills. Good Stuff.

 

[NYCRonin]

I saw the title of this thread and, upon reading it; that little voice in my head gave a quick answer.
What is Systema?
Come what may, you go home.

Sorry, I feel abit cryptic today!