What is "San Miguel Eskrima"?

[bart]

Hi all,

From what I am getting without going to the sites is an overview of where it came and who is involved.

How about some techs? Or did I miss them???

Strike 1 or, how many strikes or???

I was working over at an instructors, some variations on Cabales Escrima or Modern Arnis. I point that out, he say's it is all an illusion, same strikes same stuff different flavor.

So with that I will add a Joke. Is it like someone drunk on San Miguel beer?
Wild and dashing or composed and cunning, tight stuff or loose?

Close, middle or long range? Like Leo Giron Master's Fan 20 different???

12 strikes angles? 5 strikes angles? Blocks can you compare to something???

Thanks, Gary

Hey There,

I'm a San Miguel guy myself out in your neck of the woods. Drop on by so we can talk about it. San Miguel is a style of Doce Pares Eskrima, the personal style of Doce Pares Grandmaster Momoy Canete. It is not the korto kurbada that has come to signify modern Doce Pares but rather the linear old style Doce Pares "Original". As it is Doce Pares it has 12 basic strikes but there's a good number of subsets, supersets, and variations.

Having studied both Serada and Modern Arnis, I can tell you that it is not just the same stuff. It is different in several ways perhaps most of all in its minimalism and lack of ornamentation compared to the other styles you mentioned. But also its emphasis on the generation of power and the specific use of principles to impart the style give it a distinct flavor.

Some other things to set it apart are the use of the long stick (32"-36") versus the 24"-26" stick of Serada. The stepping in San Miguel is based on a diamond pattern that is different than the box stepping in Serada as well. Compared to Modern Arnis, the training methodology is very different in terms of what is taught when and how things flow from abesedario to seguidas and later into free flow palusot and palakaw. Also San Miguel makes different use of the stick and dagger to train the empty hands.

In terms of range San Miguel emphasizes the long range and the short range and views the middle range as an area to "get through". As always between different FMA there are a lot more similarities than differences but San Miguel is definitely different from the others and distinct in a very visible way.

I have a video of some of the living San Miguel Grandmasters on my website:www.CapitalDocePares.com. Follow the menu to the videos page. It's the first one.

I had a chance to train with these gentlemen during my trip to Cebu this last summer and it changed the way that I think about my eskrima. Most of these men were at their physical prime in the 1950's and 1960's and to see them move the way they do is nothing less than impressive and inspiring.

For what it's worth, I believe in a strong historical influence of western fighting arts on the FMA be it boxing, wrestling, or weapon based. I'm glad to see that the rapier and dagger is being explored and I think its study is a valid and logical extension of the principles that serve as the foundation of SME.

 

[Christopher Umbs]

Mr. Umbs,

I would like to hear more about your schools background/history and how you guys train. Also, where in NYC?

Perhaps start a thread in the knife or sword forum?

Thanks,

Paul

Yeah, I don't want to clog up space here. Most of your questions can probably be answered at http://www.martinez-destreza.com/ and
http://www.scherma-tradizionale.org/

Chris

 

[lhommedieu]

Bart,

Great Clip. Thanks for making it available.

For GAB, who asked for a more technical discussion - consider the following use of "Uno Dos" (stick/daga/stick/daga).

All four masters demonstrate this fundamental combination after setting it up with four different preceding striking combinations and footwork patterns – beautiful to watch. I've put the sequences in a time-frame and underlined where "Uno Dos" and "Forward w/ Uno Dos" (Uno Dos with footwork that takes you forward) take place.

Master Borja:

[00:06 – 00:09]

Angle 7 (diagonal upward cut);Angle 2 (diagonal downward cut); Angle 9 (Sungkette); Uno Dos (Flywheel, palm-down thrust with daga; Angle 2 (diagonal downward cut; palm-up thrust with daga); Forward w/ Uno Dos (started with an Angle 1 cut instead of the flywheel).


Master Culanag:

[00:25 – 00:28]

A sort of tripled Arko (but angled forward and down) while moving laterally and back to the left with a cross step; Media (half-strike); Forward with Uno Dos while executing a “zig-zag” step to mirror the previous footwork. (Notice how he gets back to the same place as Master Borja in the previous clip.)

Master Canete:

[00:36 – 00:39]

Jump w/ Arko; Turn Right w/ Uno Dos (abbreviated); Turn Right w/ Arko; Forward w/ Uno Dos.

Master Casio

[01:04– 01:13]

Arko – Arko; Elese; 4 “Helicopters”; Angle #1; 3 Flywheels to Angle 8; Forward w/ Uno Dos.

(Note: "Flywheels" are the circular vertical cuts that can also travel from right to left, like an Angle 1 initiated from a backhand guard; "Arko" is the redoble-type movement; "Elese" is the 7-Count upward diagonal series; "Helicopters" are sort of like umbrellas).

Nice to see clips like this on the internet - outstanding.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[GAB]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the follow up sounds good.

Hi Bart, I talked to Sensei Kelly (where I practice). He said maybe I should go by and check it out or??

Right now I am preparing for a seminar on thursday with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and Sensei Kelly, we will be doing advanced eskrima Hanshi Bruce style, good stuff.

Thanks for the invite.

Regards, Gary

 

[bart]

Hi Gary,

Come on by. I'm at the Hagan Community Center in Rancho Cordova, Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. Tonight our class is going to be in a different building, but it should be still easy to find. Wednesdays we work more theory. Saturdays we do more combative drills and sparring. I don't think anything you see tonight or Saturday would interfere with Hanshi's seminar. Like I said, there are more similarities than differences, but I would spend more time contrasting than comparing.

I studied under Hanshi when I was a kid and I have a large amount of respect for him. He actually was my first FMA teacher. I would like to see how his stick fighting art has developed. I also work right around the corner from Pat Kelly's school.

Anyway, I hope to see you soon. My regards to your teachers.

 

[GAB]

Hi Bart,

OK I will try and come by and observe.

On the same note you could also come by and see what is happening at the first seiminar on the Advanced Eskrima Thursday night 6:00/9:00 PM.

It is at Sensei Pat's school. I am going to be there more now that I have a reduced schedule. No more branching out I am going to tighten up and stick with one Instructor.

A lot less costly and like Sensei George Santana said, not much difference in the teaching, it is just a different flavor. GM Estalilla said, it is all chicken just prepared different.
I like Modern Arnis for the drills and activity for body motion and strength conditioning. Then others are closer and less active. Rick Faye's stuff is great also...IMO

Regards, Gary

Hi Gary,

Come on by. I'm at the Hagan Community Center in Rancho Cordova, Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. Tonight our class is going to be in a different building, but it should be still easy to find. Wednesdays we work more theory. Saturdays we do more combative drills and sparring. I don't think anything you see tonight or Saturday would interfere with Hanshi's seminar. Like I said, there are more similarities than differences, but I would spend more time contrasting than comparing.

I studied under Hanshi when I was a kid and I have a large amount of respect for him. He actually was my first FMA teacher. I would like to see how his stick fighting art has developed. I also work right around the corner from Pat Kelly's school.

Anyway, I hope to see you soon. My regards to your teachers.

 

[lhommedieu]

Steve,

I'm an instructor of a number of European arts including rapier and dagger at the Martinez Academy in NYC and I've entered FMA tournaments using it, so I'll have to find the time to see Mr. Seetoo in action...
Chris

Chris,

Just wanted to let you know that James got a great job offer recently and has moved to the west coast. You can still contact him via email however.

A friend of mine lent me his copy of Maestro Martinez' Italian Rapier and Spanish Rapier DVD's. I thought they were outstanding, both in the quality of the instruction and in the way that they depicted (to my uneducated eye at least) what was probably the essence of both schools.

One observation: due to the size of the weapons involved and a heavier emphasis on cutting (compared to use of the thrust by the European schools above), Filipino styles appear to me at least to use larger movements both with respect to body mechanics and footwork. This may be due in part to an earlier historical dependence by Filipino martial artists on battlefield techniques vs. the dueling environment represented by the European schools above. However, it is also true that a careful attention to range and angling is important to both Filipino and European systems, I don't doubt that instruction in one style of martial art would lend itself to an appreciation of the other, if not a better understanding of how each style operates.

There is also the factor that in Filipino martial arts the type of "duel" that took place during the last century or so (with many exceptions) in the Philippines was done with hardwood sticks instead of blades. A reliance on powerful strikes with the end of a hardwood stick to bony targets is obviously going to change the kinds of techniques that are utilized in Filipino arts (i.e. they're going to look different from European styles of fence that are as historically determined by the kinds of duels that gentlemen fought in the 16th to 20th centuries). But if you look backwards towards earlier Filipino arts that privilage the use of the blade, e.g. Kalis Illustrisimo, you see techniques that start to mirror their European counterparts in terms of the economy of movement that a bladed weapon can afford, i.e., the blade does most of the work.

These are of course generalizatons and I am not saying anything at all like "bladed weapons arts are 'better' than stick arts," or "European arts are 'better' than Filipino arts," etc. That kind of nonsense doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. I think that one of the most interesting things about martial arts is how they are each the product of their own place and time, and that we should learn how to value the arts that we practice partly in that context. For example, a friend of mine asked me recently why I thought that Momoy Canete's San Miguel Eskrima and Bacon's Balintawak looked so different, in spite of the fact that they trained together and both learned from the Saavedras. One thing that came to mind was that Momoy's art was influenced by European fencing techniques (a teacher of mine once wrote that some aspects looked a lot like saber fencing), and remained anchored in a sword-duelist's mentality, while Bacon's art was forged through stick fights in the halls and streets of Cebu.

Anyway, I enjoyed the DVD's and they sparked a lot of thought about martial arts in general.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Christopher Umbs]

Steve, I'm glad you enjoyed them. The DVDs represent 16th and 17th century techniques. My personal preference is for 19th c. French rapier which uses a much shorter blade (35" as opposed to 40" for someone of my height - 6ft.) With the French, even though it's a lighter blade, I do far more cutting. With the 40" blades, the cuts are relatively slow. In the Italian school, it's possible to make a thrust against a cut that allows you to defend yourself and hit the opponent in the same action. In general though, leading off with a cut gets you caught with a stop thrust.

Interestingly, the cane style that I prefer (and I've studied various French/Italian/English 19th c systems) is based off of my 19th c. Italian dueling sabre.

Chris

 

[lhommedieu]

Chris,

Interesting. This is an exerpt from an article that Agapito Gonzalez wrote about San Miguel Eskrima:

“Interestingly the play of the garrote in some pre-arranged sparring drills resembles West European style of saber fencing. Some primary strikes resemble powerful saber cuts with a possible influence of the classic Italian fencing school where the wrist and forearm move as one while pivoting from the elbow. A static training posture may remind on of the offensive lunge in European fencing. The basic parries to saber-like cuts correspond closely to the positions that form a fencer’s defensive box that covers his head and torso.”

(http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/4831/agapito_momoy.html)

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Rocky]

Steve!!! Its Rocky I'll be in NYC in Aug, You still wann hook up and do Some San Migel and Balintawak???



Rocky :asian:

 

[lhommedieu]

Rocky,

Looking forward to that. East Northport is about an 1 1/2 hours away from NYC, but if that's difficult, there's plenty of space to find in NYC.

It's possible that I may be travelling in August. Last year it was Scotland; the year before was Tuscany. This year I think we're laying low, however (I travel with family).

http://www.northshoreac.com/acupuncture/directions.htm

Best,

Steve

 

[Oliver_r_gabuya]

Brothers in arms. If you like to know about the history of San Miguel escrima ask Master Panto Flores. If you dont have idea who he is ask ramon robia, idring casio, dione cañete, pirsival.

His teaching is similar to "tatay momoy" cañete. The website is still under construction but will be materialize by the end of this month. check www.filmocan.coms.ph. we will be posting videos soon.

 

[lhommedieu]

Welcome to the forum. It's great to hear of someone else practicing San Miguel Eskrima. Master Flores would be a son of one of Momoy's daughters, then?

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Oliver_r_gabuya]

Yap. his good. i've never seen an eskrimador skills as gracefull as of his. If there's only someone out there that would support him establish a permanent gym, master panto's name will be acknowledge.

His really good

 

[lhommedieu]

Oliver,

I'll be visiting relatives in Pennsylvania and would be happy to meet with you in Harrisburg if that's still convenient.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[lhommedieu]

A lot of the history regarding San Miguel Eskrima can be found on this URL (from my website):

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/training.htm

There is a link to a biography of Momoy on the top of this page and another link to the San Miguel Eskrima Association web site.

The chapter in Mark Wiley's Filipino Fighting Arts about San Miguel Eskrima describes Tom Bisio's interpretation of Momoy Canete's Eskrima; the chapter in Rey Galang's book describes the development of San Miguel Eskrima within the Doce Pares Multi-Style organization.

Agapito Gonzalez' article is quite good, as is the one by Steve Drape.

My forward to Dan Anderson's Espada y Daga book places San Miguel Eskrima in a historical and cultural context with respect to the Saavedras. I should add that it is only my opinion.

See also the following URL for some links to organizations that teach or are related somehow to San Miguel Eskrima:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/links.htm

The picture that you cite above is one of several that Tom Bisio gave to participants in his instructors' classes in 1995. It captures perfectly what Tom has said initially attracted him to Momoy's art: an expression of grace and relaxed power. I'll ask Tom where it came from when I see him.

There was an extensive thread called "What is San Miguel Eskrima?" on MT a couple years ago; it's resurfaced recently as one of Momoy's grandsons is teaching his interpretation of the art and one of his students made a post about it.

I've also heard that Ramon Rubia from the San Miguel Eskrima Asosasyon, USA, has done a lot research in Cebu about Momoy and is probably your best source of information from the older generation of Doce Pares eskrimadors.

I should also note that Edring Casio is currently staying with his godson in San Diego and will be teaching a seminar this October. Definitely worth a look at.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[lhommedieu]

I've also been in contact (today) with Panto Flores of Cebu (Momoy's grandson, referred to above), who also has his interpretation of San Miguel Eskrima. He made a post recently on MT, so perhaps he will follow up here.

Best,

Steve

 

[Guro Harold]

Mod Note:

- Threads combined. The newer redundant thread started by me has been removed.

- Picture from new thread added.

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

 

[lhommedieu]

Just a followup:

Panto Flores' (Momoy's grandson) website is now up: www.filmocan.com

There are some new videos about SME on Youtube, including an interview with Kano Canete (Momoy's son):

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[lhommedieu]

Just a followup:

Panto Flores' (Momoy's grandson) website is now up: www.filmocan.com

There are some new videos about SME on Youtube, including an interview with Kano Canete (Momoy's son):

More YouTube video from Master Panto:

Filmocan Eskrima Single Stick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qgzA8do_Iw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXYH6ofS-V0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUAMig2r4ro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX9mbq3D828

Filmocan Eskrima Single Knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX9mbq3D828

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0_kyo8ejE

San Miguel Eskrima:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8h-uH_iusQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ttYeke3EXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKM1SnzZuA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8akaqjqC978

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0HmL5Xubzg

Best,

Steve