what do you think?

[seasoned]

Every move is not what it seems in kata. In other words many moves are done the same, but have entirely different meaning, which in turn changes the whole intent of any given kata. What looks like a punch, strike, kick, and block system, in order to be a complete system, needs grappling. Once you have learned a kata for face value, and it is a traditional system, and the instructor is versed in that system, you will have laid the ground work for future study in an in depth way. Instead of a hundred different moves, you will have the foundation for a thousand moves within those hundred moves, once that door of understanding has been open to you.

 

[MJS]

Every move is not what it seems in kata. In other words many moves are done the same, but have entirely different meaning, which in turn changes the whole intent of any given kata. What looks like a punch, strike, kick, and block system, in order to be a complete system, needs grappling. Once you have learned a kata for face value, and it is a traditional system, and the instructor is versed in that system, you will have laid the ground work for future study in an in depth way. Instead of a hundred different moves, you will have the foundation for a thousand moves within those hundred moves, once that door of understanding has been open to you.

Funny you should say that. A few years ago, I went to a Dillman seminar. Yeah, I know, he's a controversal guy...lol..but I wanted to form my own opinion of the guy. It was pretty funny actually, because he was going over some kata that were very similar to ones that I did back when I trained SKK at a Villari school. It was amazing...well, refreshing actually, to see some applications that were actually effective, compared to the apps. that I was taught back in the day...lol.

 

[karatekid13]

I should clarify, perhaps, that my style isn't anti-kata. A couple of the school do require advanced kata, but my school I somewhat a "satellite location" so we have to have shorter training time and no required advanced kata (though I train extra and may try to learn an advanced kata.

 

[puunui]

Every move is not what it seems in kata. In other words many moves are done the same, but have entirely different meaning, which in turn changes the whole intent of any given kata. What looks like a punch, strike, kick, and block system, in order to be a complete system, needs grappling. Once you have learned a kata for face value, and it is a traditional system, and the instructor is versed in that system, you will have laid the ground work for future study in an in depth way. Instead of a hundred different moves, you will have the foundation for a thousand moves within those hundred moves, once that door of understanding has been open to you.

I think that learning grappling moves primarily from kata performed solo, isn't the best way to approach it.

 

[seasoned]

I think that learning grappling moves primarily from kata performed solo, isn't the best way to approach it.

Within Okinawan goju, it is close in, with grabs, locks, take downs, all with a strike as the eventual outcome. This, is what makes this art a well rounded art that is kata based. The kata holds the secret, as in, one technique means many things, but it is the drills associated with each individual kata that brings it alive.

 

[seasoned]

Funny you should say that. A few years ago, I went to a Dillman seminar. Yeah, I know, he's a controversal guy...lol..but I wanted to form my own opinion of the guy. It was pretty funny actually, because he was going over some kata that were very similar to ones that I did back when I trained SKK at a Villari school. It was amazing...well, refreshing actually, to see some applications that were actually effective, compared to the apps. that I was taught back in the day...lol.

Any old traditional arts will hold all aspects of combat within the art. It's intent was to destroy, not to submit. The old arts were meant to defeat all comers. There is nothing wrong with cross training to bring out the best in your own art, but you must have that primary art to begin with, and not have sport as your goal.

 

[dancingalone]

I think that learning grappling moves primarily from kata performed solo, isn't the best way to approach it.

Within Okinawan goju, it is close in, with grabs, locks, take downs, all with a strike as the eventual outcome. This, is what makes this art a well rounded art that is kata based. The kata holds the secret, as in, one technique means many things, but it is the drills associated with each individual kata that brings it alive.

Absolutely. I would hope that no one 'learns' the grappling within kata solely and thinks that is sufficient. There is a progression there. You practice the movements with a cooperative partner at first and gradually gain proficiency until you can pull off the move as part of a combo against a resisting training partner. It is no different than learning how to 'roll' in BJJ or how to randori in Judo or Aikido.

 

[karatekid13]

we don't do grappling in our katas. a couple months ago we did a drill with doing some grappling techniques on beginners (wow, that sounded evil. haha. "grappling beginners") it was really eye-opening, as they had no clue what we were supposed to be doing, and thus didn't "help us out" at all.

i was thinking today about working towards black belt and thought of this analogy: a black belt is almost like a high school diploma. some people do very well on everything and earn it (relatively) quickly... others take longer to learn. some need modified requirements (like those with disabilities, who only train once a week, seniors, people with medical issues, etc) and some can do more and do extra (teaching assistance, extra workouts, learning optional kata, etc.) but in the end, if you passed, you passed. anyone else agree?

-catie

 

[pgsmith]

You might be in a school where you are enjoying the training but if there are no advanced kata I, personally, would be looking around for a new home.

I disagree. The first and foremost requirement for learning martial arts is that you attend class regularly for an extended period of time. In order to do this, you have to enjoy what you are doing. The number of people that attend a martial arts class for a little while and then quit is huge. The number of people that attend a martial arts class and actually have to use their skills in a violent encounter is miniscule. Therefore, just going to class is by far the most important aspect.

a black belt is almost like a high school diploma.

I like your analogy. Also, like a HS diploma, a black belt is simply a marker in the road and there is a lot still to learn after passing that marker.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely. I would hope that no one 'learns' the grappling within kata solely and thinks that is sufficient. There is a progression there. You practice the movements with a cooperative partner at first and gradually gain proficiency until you can pull off the move as part of a combo against a resisting training partner. It is no different than learning how to 'roll' in BJJ or how to randori in Judo or Aikido.

There is a difference in that there in BJJ, Judo or Aikido, there is no preset kata that is worked on first, at least not the same as an okinawan kata. Why not just skip the kata and go straight to practicing the individual move?

 

[dancingalone]

There is a difference in that there in BJJ, Judo or Aikido, there is no preset kata that is worked on first, at least not the same as an okinawan kata. Why not just skip the kata and go straight to practicing the individual move?

First, there are kata (primarily partner-based but I have heard of some solo ones) within Judo and Aikido though admittedly not all practice them. There are even short solo jo and bokken kata used by some aikido-ka.

But to answer your question directly, kata is present in karate for the long view. It's definitely efficient to drill the applications directly with a partner if we're most concerned with fast transmission of specific usable skills, and indeed that is something we do at times. When I was coming up the ranks with my sensei, he occasionally taught us some techniques outright, and it was not until months later that we learned the accompanying kata. I liked these lessons since they were easy to understand and impressive to me with the little experience I had.

But while a little instant gratification is a good thing, too much can stunt your own development. It's still important to learn the kata because it is the seed with rigorous practice for an infinite number of other applications other than those directly taught. The kata help teach principles both movement-related as well as tactical ideas. Once these are learned, the direct bunkai taught become secondary to the karate-ka. They are only a few examples out of the total pool that is possible.

I am a different person than my sensei - I cannot match this shaking power he can produce readily with his back and hips through I will always strive to reach the same level or to even surpass him if I can. But I am a much taller and heavier person than he is and by favoring other kata such as Seiunchin and Kururunfa I've developed the earthier side of Goju earlier and I am effective using these techniques and tactics. Likewise, I have a sempai who is equally big as I am but he is physically stronger, like an oak tree. I compete with him by trying to develop the soft aspects by practicing the exact same kata, yet this time focusing on the complementary yin instead of yang. I give the same opportunities to my students by teaching them the kata I was taught.

Kata is Okinawan karate. Without kata, I have no framework from which to develop myself. And while I believe it is possible to teach someone how to fight without using kata, I don't believe you'd be teaching karate. Maybe you'd be teaching something like Karate Concepts or Karate Combatives.

 

[puunui]

Kata is Okinawan karate. Without kata, I have no framework from which to develop myself. And while I believe it is possible to teach someone how to fight without using kata, I don't believe you'd be teaching karate. Maybe you'd be teaching something like Karate Concepts or Karate Combatives.

I only quoted this last part, but I want to say that your whole post was a good answer. And I hope you don't think I am picking on you when I challenge so many of your posts. I do that because you are up for it, never get mad or take it the wrong way, and I learn from your background, experience and perspective, which is different from mine. Thanks.

 

[Tez3]

I happen to disagree, but I don't want to start a fight here... To each his own, right? MMA fighters are very successful/well trained in self-defense but some may have never done a kata in their life.

I think you might be surprised there, it depends on what you think a kata is. A very simple one in a boxing club for example could be jab, cross, uppercut then hook punch. You might not use them in that order in a fight but it teaches you what they are and how you can use them in combinations etc. I wouldn't mistake self defence for a competitive style either, everyone is different, most MMA fighters can defend themselves but SD is not the reason they train. I'd read up on Iain Abernthy's work as suggested, I don't think you understand what kata is because it certainly doesn't need hours of study and does contain just about everything needed to defend yourself, it's what it was designed for.

 

[K-man]

I disagree. The first and foremost requirement for learning martial arts is that you attend class regularly for an extended period of time. In order to do this, you have to enjoy what you are doing. The number of people that attend a martial arts class for a little while and then quit is huge. The number of people that attend a martial arts class and actually have to use their skills in a violent encounter is miniscule. Therefore, just going to class is by far the most important.

What I meant was, if I spent years training without kata then found out what kata really is, I would feel cheated. If I knew what kata meant, and by kata I really mean the bunkai, and chose to intentionally reject it then that was a conscious choice.

In my own training, the people teaching us, who were basically the pioneers in this country, had no idea of the value of kata and as a consequence many schools stopped teaching kata and went to a freestyle system that kk13 appears to be training with. In Australia many of those clubs have reintroduced the kata and are now training the bunkai. I feel sad that I trained for 20 years with the impression that kata was for competition and it contained the basic tools but that was it. I was hoping to influence kk13 to explore kata a little more.

I agree with you that few people will need their MA skills to protect themselves. If self defence was my sole objective, I would be training KM and they do not have kata. it all depends on what you hope to get out of your training.

 

[pgsmith]

What I meant was, if I spent years training without kata then found out what kata really is, I would feel cheated. If I knew what kata meant, and by kata I really mean the bunkai, and chose to intentionally reject it then that was a conscious choice.

In my own training, the people teaching us, who were basically the pioneers in this country, had no idea of the value of kata and as a consequence many schools stopped teaching kata and went to a freestyle system that kk13 appears to be training with. In Australia many of those clubs have reintroduced the kata and are now training the bunkai. I feel sad that I trained for 20 years with the impression that kata was for competition and it contained the basic tools but that was it. I was hoping to influence kk13 to explore kata a little more.

I agree with you that few people will need their MA skills to protect themselves. If self defence was my sole objective, I would be training KM and they do not have kata. it all depends on what you hope to get out of your training.

Ah, that makes more sense. Rather than urge a change from a club that the OP obviously enjoys, I would say rather to explore further and research more to achieve a better understanding of what else is involved. The tools and resources that are available today are phenomenal compared to what was available 20 years ago. It astounds me how many people are content to simply attend their own dojo and not learn more about the art they practice, and the martial arts in general.

I understand where you are coming from concerning kata, since I practice a Japanese koryu and almost all of our training is through kata.

 

[Tez3]

This is how Bunkai is taught ( or should be!)

 

[puunui]

I understand where you are coming from concerning kata, since I practice a Japanese koryu and almost all of our training is through kata.

What part is not kata? Or perhaps a better question would be - besides kata, what other training methods do you utilize in the koryu that you study?

 

[pgsmith]

What part is not kata? Or perhaps a better question would be - besides kata, what other training methods do you utilize in the koryu that you study?

At my level, the only part of training in my present koryu that isn't kata is tameshigiri (test cutting for those unfamiliar with Japanese sword arts terminology). Even then, a good portion of our cutting is predetermined patterns or out of kata. At slightly higher levels, there becomes more exploration regarding vector changes with regards to various weaponry. I've only had the opportunity to engage in a small amount of that type of training though.

 

[puunui]

At my level, the only part of training in my present koryu that isn't kata is tameshigiri (test cutting for those unfamiliar with Japanese sword arts terminology). Even then, a good portion of our cutting is predetermined patterns or out of kata. At slightly higher levels, there becomes more exploration regarding vector changes with regards to various weaponry. I've only had the opportunity to engage in a small amount of that type of training though.

Do you test cut on goza only? I would think that could get expensive, unless you roll up beach mats and do it. I don't know if that would net you the same results though.

 

[pgsmith]

Do you test cut on goza only? I would think that could get expensive, unless you roll up beach mats and do it. I don't know if that would net you the same results though.

We use tatami omote from Mugen Dachi exclusively. I've tried the beach mats and, while definitely cheaper, they don't provide the same level of feedback. I wrote an article called Comparison Chopping (yeah, bad sense of humor!) for the Iaido Journal at EJMAS a number of years back (2003 or 2004?) comparing the different targets available at the time for tameshigiri.