What constitutes a being a "personal student" of an instructor?

[Doc]

... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?

-Michael

I agree sir. You are only their student if they say you are. What you might think or feel, doesn't matter.

 

[donald]

In regards to the seminar issue. Attending a seminar, or series of seminars does'nt make you anyones student. You must train with the instructor who you claim. I think that the people who claim to be students of another. Know whether they speak the truth, or not. After Mr.Parker Sr. died,I bet his student enrollment jumped considerably.

 

[ikenpo]

Well,

There are at least 3 components...:readrules

1) attended at least 1 of their seminars
2) 1 photo of the two of you (after seminar) preferably placed on internet.
3) weekly name dropping to fellow martial arts (must be on a first name to show familiarity)

that's about it....

 

[Bill Lear]

... I have attended seminars with lots of the top Kenpoist in the world including many with Mr. Parker. Do I claim I am their student? Certainly not, that is an outrageous claim. I trained with Mr. (insert name here), but unless he says I am his student, I better not be claiming to be.

Let's flip the coin. Mr. Parker "taught" a lot of people. Even when you considered yourself his student, were you getting the material from him? Or did he send you to one of his other Black Belts for material, then work with you once or twice a year? Would you still be his student.

In your eyes ....
In his eyes ...
In the eyes of the instructor teaching you the material ....
How about in the eyes of your students ....
Or in the eyes of your peers ....
Or other Parker Black Belts?

Answer the above questions honestly, if not to us, then at least to yourself. You will know whether you were his student, or not. (I personally think he would have told you, but hey, I could be wrong.)

And you wonder why Kenpo is a mess right now? Or maybe not! And if it is, does it affect YOU?

-Michael

I agree 100%. That was a really good post.

 

[Drac]

For me, personal student means learning the material directly from the teacher and lots of one on one time.
you can usually tell a personal student by some tangible and / or intangible recognition given by the instructor.

Although I am not a Kenpo practitioner I agree 100% with al the above posts.

 

[Michael Billings]

Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha

You are ssooooooo right.

Guffaw,
-Michael

 

[sac-ked]

With video testing being a part of training now, I would add that a "personal student" is one who is physically present with their instructor.

IMO as to the seminar training. I do not feel you can claim that a seminar makes you a student of that instructor. Being a student implies to me that there is a continual learning process not a day or two.

Be proud of who you are and where you came from, your "Presonal Instructor" may be reading..........

Just a thought.

 

[searcher]

For me, being a personal student means developing a bond with your instructor/student that goes beyond the basics and regular teaching. It's having a personal relationship.
I know of some teachers that don't like this because they need to get involved with the student out of class. And they ain't necessarily McDojo's teachers.

You are on the money. I can go sit for long hours and listen to a doctor talk about some medical procedure, but it won't make me an expert in that particular subject. You have to go beyond the superficial to become a true student.

 

[Doc]

You are on the money. I can go sit for long hours and listen to a doctor talk about some medical procedure, but it won't make me an expert in that particular subject. You have to go beyond the superficial to become a true student.

I'll say it again. It doesn't matter what the student "thinks," the instructor decides who is really his student in many ways. Sometimes through written documentation, sometimes by content of what he chooses to share with you over and above a diploma. Lots of Parker diplomas out there and they are absolutely no indication of the level of the knowledge transfered. Therefore you have students on many levels. Some "general," some "specific," and some "special." I know people that Parker taught more to without a diploma than some who have diplomas.

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.

 

[Brother John]

Mr. Parker used to teach around 40 or so weekends a year. Instructors would set up Seminars or Workshops and he would teach the group and usually help the host privately as well.

If you were "helped" during the " Seminar" does this mean you were considered "student" of Ed Parkers or is there a more formal definition such as being an official association member or actually the agreement between Mr. Parker and the Instructor which seems more official to me than most who seem to be self proclaimed students due to attendance? Or are there other factors that should be considered?

Your thoughts......

:asian:

Interesting line of questioning Mr. Conatser...
In one way LOTS and LOTS of people were Mr. Parker's "Student" in that they looked to him for leadership and an ongoing inspiration in the arts as well as an endless flow of education if one listened and tried to apply their mind to what he said and wrote. But that doesn't make someone a 'student', especially a personal student...of Mr. Parker.

I'd say that a personal student is someone who's only instructor would have been Mr. Parker. NOT "only ever", but someone who was taken in by Mr. Parker, accepted as a student and then had only Mr. Parker as their source of instruction in Kenpo.
Does that make sense?
What do you think?

Your Brother
John

 

[Michael Billings]

John, good definition. I do think it is up to the instructor to take on the student ... not up to the student (post facto) to decide he or she, was one of Mr. Parker's students. Here I do mean personal students as vs all of us who were students of his Kenpo.

-Michael

 

[redcdiver]

My thought is that the term ‘personal’ in ‘personal student’ is something that is of little or no consequence, in reality. You are either a student of an instructor or you are not. One student can learn a great deal in class from an instructor and have almost no relationship other than that. Another can learn a fraction of what the first learned and be quite friendly outside of class. Is the first a student and the second a ‘personal student’?

Some people obviously lie about who their instructor(s) is (are).

My daughter studies with David Pantano at Counterstrike Kenpo in Philadelphia. She has been to seminars and been taught by various instructors. Among them are Larry Tatum, Clyde O’Briant, Juan Serrano, Cliff Seminerio, Sean Kelley, Edmund Parker, Jr…. Some of these instructors have spent personal time instructing her, over and above just the normal level of attention at the gatherings. Does this make her a student of any of these people? OF COURSE NOT!!

Let’s say my job transfers me to California. My daughter will no longer be studying with David Pantano. While both my daughter and Mr. Pantano would readily acknowledge that she is his student, even if they had a falling out later, that fact does not change. She will always be a student of his.

I think that the gray area comes when several (many) instructors teach in the same school.

By way of example, I will use Larry Tatum’s school in Pasadena. I do this not to drop names; I just am familiar with some of the individuals there.



Scenerio 1: Study is continued with Mr. Tatum. Mr. Tatum promotes based on increased proficiency. Also attends classes taught by Mr. O’Briant, Mr. Serrano and/or Mr. Seminerio…. She is now a student of Mr. Tatum.



Scenerio 2: Study is continued at Mr. Tatum’s school under the instruction of Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano gives her the bulk of her instruction. Mr. Serrano decides if and when she gets promoted. She does attend some classes during which Mr. Tatum is the instructor. She is a now a student of Mr. Serrano. While Mr. Tatum may have been on the panel for her promotion, he did give her the bulk of her training.



Scenerio 3: Same as #2 with the following exception. In witnessing my daughter in class, Mr. Tatum takes a personal interest in her martial arts studies. He takes her aside with some regularity and trains her personally. This training is over and above that which she receives from Mr. Serrano and helps her progress more rapidly and with a greater insight into kenpo. She would be justified in saying she is a student of Mr. Tatum and Mr. Serrano.



This is just my take on the question.



Mark

 

[Kenpomachine]

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.

Maybe they weren't "personal" students at first? Just regular students who just happened to get a good amount of knowledge from someone without getting really involved with the instructor/master?

And then, some people try to lie to themselves as much as the others. But that's actually their problem, isn't it?

 

[Kenpomachine]

My thought is that the term ‘personal’ in ‘personal student’ is something that is of little or no consequence, in reality. You are either a student of an instructor or you are not. One student can learn a great deal in class from an instructor and have almost no relationship other than that. Another can learn a fraction of what the first learned and be quite friendly outside of class. Is the first a student and the second a ‘personal student’?

Mark, by what you wrote under this paragraph I think you have an idea of what constitutes a personal student quite clear and very different from this. And that's also one that agrees to what Doc have said, quoting from your scenario 3

Mr. Tatum takes a personal interest in her martial arts studies.

But I still think that the personal interest must go both ways to validate. You can take that personal interest in me as a student, but I still may think that you're just another instructor.

 

[JenniM]

I agree sir. You are only their student if they say you are. What you might think or feel, doesn't matter.

Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."

 

[Doc]

Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."

"I ain't mad at you"

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

And sometimes students even divorce themselves from their instructor in favor of their instructors instructor. Larry Tatum promoted a lot of well known black belts who seemed to have forgotten that in favor of the "Parker taught me mantra." Hell one of my black belts did the same to me.

S*** happens.

Something else I've always thought was interesting. How many 2nd Gen BB can you name that came from the Pasadena Studio on Walnut and how many can you name that came from the W. LA studio? Please, give me some names from the Pasadena studio cuz I don't know of any.

DarK LorD

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos - what is missing? - respect, loyalty and integrity on the part of both Instructor and Student - you gotta stay true to yourself - if you can stand in the same room face to face with your Instructor of whom you claim to be a personal student and are acknowledged as such by said Instructor then all well and good.

Its the way I roll!! (I remember Doc lol!! - looking forward to seeing you in May:ultracool )

"It is vital to recognize what you are not, in order that what you really are can emerge."

If that is the requirement, I wonder if I qualify LOL? What you just said is the bottom line, spot on mate.

DarK LorD

 

[Bammx2]

I don't know about personal students...but I have a kid the others have dubbed my "padu'an!

:jedi1:

I may have to adopt him!

 

[kenpoworks]

Originally Posted by JenniM
Absolutely! - There are many who like to re-write their MA history to satisfy their own egos .......

loved this bit

Yeh, Kenpo has it's fair share of Re-written & Re-invented instructors, masters and even now grand masters history.

Oh!, to be a personal student of someone you have to have given money too someone who went to a ""s-e-m-i-n-a-r"" and had his photo taken with someone who trained with the person to whom you are a personal student.
These are of course the minimum requirements as lais down in the Hong Kong book of Kung Fooee.