lklawson
Grandmaster
Um... What? An Unintended Discharge is not synonymous with Glock Leg.
Try again. What are the stats on UD's during draw? Then give us a percentage of those for all draws.
What condition do you carry your weapon?
- Thread starter Bruce7
- Start date
Try again. What are the stats on UD's during draw? Then give us a percentage of those for all draws.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Who doesn't want that?
lklawson
Grandmaster
That's nice. Now give a percentage. So far you've got this one and some guy I remember from YouTube.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Yes.
Dang. Maybe we shouldn't allow them to drive either. One accidental pull of the wheel to once side or the other and someone may be dead!
Because it's a half-century out of date and predicated on technology and a training paradigm that are 100 years out of date.[/QUOTE]Can you think of any major training organization or school in the U.S. which actually advocates for <cough> "Israeli Carry" for civilian self defense? Gunsite? Front Site? KR Training? USCCA? SIG Academy? Suarez International? Lethal Force Institute? Defense Training International?
Which ones?
Look if you want to carry C3, that's fine. But there are darn few reasons to advocate anyone else do it, and fewer still (as in none) that can't be addressed with training combined with a firearm designed in more recently than 110 years ago.
- Thread Starter
- #65
Two years ago I went downtown for jury duty and could not find the court house.
I pull up to a police car, to ask for directions and he points a gun at me.
Before I could say any thing, he said move or he was going to arrest me. I was glad to move, I was very shook up.
I don't go down town Houston anymore, because I am afraid of being shot by the police.
Police in kingwood where I live are very friendly and very helpful.
They are not going to pull a gun on me, so I am not worried about them carrying condition 0.
I had been told by many people be careful when you go into Houston, police will shoot you.
I told them they were crazy, Houston police are not that bad.
I am not so sure now.
Very informative article with good numbers.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/arti...hootings-by-police-expose-training-shortfalls
I pull up to a police car, to ask for directions and he points a gun at me.
Before I could say any thing, he said move or he was going to arrest me. I was glad to move, I was very shook up.
I don't go down town Houston anymore, because I am afraid of being shot by the police.
Police in kingwood where I live are very friendly and very helpful.
They are not going to pull a gun on me, so I am not worried about them carrying condition 0.
I had been told by many people be careful when you go into Houston, police will shoot you.
I told them they were crazy, Houston police are not that bad.
I am not so sure now.
Very informative article with good numbers.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/arti...hootings-by-police-expose-training-shortfalls
Most UDs occur after the draw, while either manipulating the weapon or in the course of taking action. Carrying it in condition 0 is not a factor.
Carrying the weapon unloaded would not have prevented any of the UDs mentioned in the article.
An opinion piece from 2017... It's more recent, but still dated. And about Sigs, not Glocks... and written by an attorney defending someone in a case allegedly resulting from an unintentional discharge.
lklawson
Grandmaster
"...experts say it’s because of a lack of training."
Which is exactly what the rest of us have been saying in this thread. Will you believe it now that an article you posted is saying the same thing?
@Bruce7
Let me better explain my position.
In my experience, UDs while drawing are extremely rare and switching to an Israeli method of carry doesn't correct the problems associated with UDs.
The problem is not the condition you carry it in....its the improper handling and trigger finger discipline.
For example....Officer Joe Blow has poor handling practices and trigger discipline. As he draws his weapon....his finger pulls the trigger and the gun goes boom.
The same Officer Joe Blow carrying in a Israeli method draws his weapon, chambers the round and again the gun goes boom.....why...because the problem is his finger being on the trigger... not the condition of the weapon. Switching to the Israeli method does not correct the problem.
The gun doesn't go boom unless you pull the trigger.
Also most holsters cover the trigger....and almost all UDs are after the actual draw. So again the Israeli method does not correct that (because you chamber a round when you draw). One exception was the black hawk holster which used a button on the holster located over the trigger guard to release the weapon from the holster. The button had to be pressed down to release the gun from the holster and some people had the tendency to continue to press down as they drew causing their finger to pull the trigger. The simple fix...dont use the Black hawk holster.
So switching to the Israeli method basically asks the carrier to slow their response time to a threat plus take on all the problems associated with the Israeli method for the sole purpose of a false sense of safety.
Let me better explain my position.
In my experience, UDs while drawing are extremely rare and switching to an Israeli method of carry doesn't correct the problems associated with UDs.
The problem is not the condition you carry it in....its the improper handling and trigger finger discipline.
For example....Officer Joe Blow has poor handling practices and trigger discipline. As he draws his weapon....his finger pulls the trigger and the gun goes boom.
The same Officer Joe Blow carrying in a Israeli method draws his weapon, chambers the round and again the gun goes boom.....why...because the problem is his finger being on the trigger... not the condition of the weapon. Switching to the Israeli method does not correct the problem.
The gun doesn't go boom unless you pull the trigger.
Also most holsters cover the trigger....and almost all UDs are after the actual draw. So again the Israeli method does not correct that (because you chamber a round when you draw). One exception was the black hawk holster which used a button on the holster located over the trigger guard to release the weapon from the holster. The button had to be pressed down to release the gun from the holster and some people had the tendency to continue to press down as they drew causing their finger to pull the trigger. The simple fix...dont use the Black hawk holster.
So switching to the Israeli method basically asks the carrier to slow their response time to a threat plus take on all the problems associated with the Israeli method for the sole purpose of a false sense of safety.
- Thread Starter
- #70
Do people train enough for condition 0 or 1?
Minimum Training
Average cost of gun training $ 250 per day
1 day + $50 Ammo = $300
Range 20 times 50 rounds
Bulk 1000 round 9mm tax and shipping = $250
20 times Range fee targets,etc 20 x $20 = $400
Total Cost = $950
Drawing weapon at training school = 8 hours
Hour and half at shooting range x 20 = 30 hours
Total Hours Practiced = 38 hours
Good Training
Average cost of gun training $ 250 per day
5 days + $250 Ammo = $1500
2 Bulk 1000 round 9mm tax and shipping = $500
40 times Range fee targets,etc 40 x $20 = $800
Range 40 times 50 rounds
Total Cost = $2800
Drawing weapon at training school = 40 hours
hour and half at shooting range x 40 = 60 hours
Total Hours Practiced = 100 hours
I don't go to schools because I can not practice Drawing condition 3.
I go to my friends ranch to pratice condition 3 draw and shoot about 200 rounds.
It is a long drive so I only go to his house about twice a month, sometimes once a month.
We general shoot other guns too, it makes for a nice weekend.
Outside of my 1911 airpistol, I have not shot any weapon since Januray because of the Cornoavirus.
Minimum Training
Average cost of gun training $ 250 per day
1 day + $50 Ammo = $300
Range 20 times 50 rounds
Bulk 1000 round 9mm tax and shipping = $250
20 times Range fee targets,etc 20 x $20 = $400
Total Cost = $950
Drawing weapon at training school = 8 hours
Hour and half at shooting range x 20 = 30 hours
Total Hours Practiced = 38 hours
Good Training
Average cost of gun training $ 250 per day
5 days + $250 Ammo = $1500
2 Bulk 1000 round 9mm tax and shipping = $500
40 times Range fee targets,etc 40 x $20 = $800
Range 40 times 50 rounds
Total Cost = $2800
Drawing weapon at training school = 40 hours
hour and half at shooting range x 40 = 60 hours
Total Hours Practiced = 100 hours
I don't go to schools because I can not practice Drawing condition 3.
I go to my friends ranch to pratice condition 3 draw and shoot about 200 rounds.
It is a long drive so I only go to his house about twice a month, sometimes once a month.
We general shoot other guns too, it makes for a nice weekend.
Outside of my 1911 airpistol, I have not shot any weapon since Januray because of the Cornoavirus.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Mule muffins! You can do draw & fire holster-work training at home for $15.
https://www.amazon.com/ZOOM-Action-Proving-Dummy-Round/dp/B077MXCJPC
lklawson
Grandmaster
I like using the Laser Marking Cartridges with a free printed target and a free phone app.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
- Thread Starter
- #74
I agree this is a good product. (A-ZOOM Action Proving Dummy Round, Snap Cap)
I keep live ammo in black magizines and snap capes in a silver magzine.
I only use snap caps to practices trigger pull.
To practice drawing and firing at home at first I had used a primer and plastic bullet.
Since the 1911 air guns are so much like my real 1911 I use it for drawing and firing.
Cheaper quieter and hits the target better.
A good one is a little over $200.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Could use a airsoft pistol if you have one as well. (doesnt work for marksmanship obviously, but if its a proper replica of the one you carry manual of arms should be the same)
Wait, did you mean airgun airgun or airsoft airgun? If you meant airsoft then the above was completely worthless.
Wait, did you mean airgun airgun or airsoft airgun? If you meant airsoft then the above was completely worthless.
lklawson
Grandmaster
A laser marking cartridge does the same stuff but lets you use your own gun so you know it's your trigger and your sights.
If you insist on spending real money, there's the CoolFire option which uses your gun, a CO2 fill so you get felt recoil, has a laser marker option, and still uses your trigger and sights. The full package will run you about the same price as 20 boxes of .45ACP. You can easily burn up 20 boxes in 2-3 range sessions.
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