What are you envisioning for a self defense scenairo?

[hardheadjarhead]

What are we talking about when we say we're training for a "real life self defense" situation?

I get the impression from a very few on this forum that such a scenario is going to take place in an alley or reasonably flat open space, against one person of moderate size, who is unarmed, untrained and attacking from a distance that allows for the execution of kicks.

What other scenarios do you train? What other variables do you introduce? What factors do you consider?

Do you ever go to the news and look at a report of an assault and then train that scenario?



Regards,



Steve

 

[superdave]

Thats a very good question. In my opinion, it would be hard to train for any specific scenario. There are just too many variables. I think that the most of us train against certain types of attacks. Though, environmental traing is an excellent idea.

Listening to your intuition is the best way to avoid a possible altercation.

 

[spatulahunter]

I think a few good scenarios would be:

1. While getting out of a car either after an accident or in a parking lot its some place that would give your opponent a slight advantage and seems realistic

2. Sporting events, concerts, theatres or anywhere that large #s of people gather. Hey the more people there are the more likely you are to run into an assclown that wants to show everyone how big his balls are.

3. At work. I work at circuit city and i have seen customers get pissed off enough to want to fight employees and I have also seen people that were scandalous enough to try to take things forcefully.

Just a few scenarios but i think the best way to make sure you are always aware of your own surroundings and the surroundings of the people with you.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I agree with the sporting or any big event scrairo. The guy behid you takes offence at something you said or did and hits you in the head or kicks you to begin it. Your leaveing the event and someone or a couple of people come up beside you and you girlfriend(wife, boyfriend, children) stick a knife to your neck or the neck of whomever your with.
the guy beside or behind you decieds to grab a quick feel.
Your walking to your car and someone runs buy and grabs your purse.
these are real situations that need to be trained for

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Thats a very good question. In my opinion, it would be hard to train for any specific scenario. There are just too many variables.

I agree that it would be tough.

I think perhaps that hitting as many scenarios as possible will get the student thinking creatively "outside of the box".

This wouldn't be for the goal of addressing every conceivable situation, but rather in the hopes of developing a flexible mind set. Student and instructor awareness might increase as well.

I think many of us assume an attack will occur only in certain environments (say, bad neighborhoods at night...on the street) when they can occur at seemingly unlikely times.

Variables can be mixed and matched. I hit a bunch of them on another thread. Some have started listing some here...and I'd like to see what you folks come up with versus me rehashing the ones I've listed.

What are other variables that you can put into scenario training?


Regards,


Steve

 

[Cruentus]

I envision a black van pulls up while I am walking down the street. 15 men armed with assult rifles, bdu's and black masks jump out and try to take me. I scream, "you'll never take me alive you bastards!" as I explode into a fury of killing techniques. When they all drop to the cement in a pool of their own blood and urine, I turn an realize that everyone.... The old lady with her walker, the couple nestling on the bench, the shop owner, the family walking down the street, are all in on the scheme. And, to make matters worse, they are zombies who want to eat my flesh and make me one of them. So I grab 2 assult rifles and I blast my way through the crowd of the undead, scattering the streets with rotted flash and dust. I run down the street, blasting away, hopping in my Porche 9-11 down the block, where an extremely hot chick in a thong bikini awaits my resuce. I say something really cool like "come on babe, lets blow this pop stand!" as I start the car, and we drive out of town at like 200 mph, both of us blasting away with our assult rifles that never seem to run out of bullets.

This is the scenario we have been training lately in the class I teach. Next week, we will train in a similar scenario involving a crew of pirates, a nuclear missle, a horse, and 10 playboy bunnies who need to be rescued.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by PAUL
I envision a black van pulls up while I am walking down the street. 15 men armed with assult rifles, bdu's and black masks jump out and try to take me. I scream, "you'll never take me alive you bastards!" as I explode into a fury of killing techniques. When they all drop to the cement in a pool of their own blood and urine, I turn an realize that everyone.... The old lady with her walker, the couple nestling on the bench, the shop owner, the family walking down the street, are all in on the scheme. And, to make matters worse, they are zombies who want to eat my flesh and make me one of them. So I grab 2 assult rifles and I blast my way through the crowd of the undead, scattering the streets with rotted flash and dust. I run down the street, blasting away, hopping in my Porche 9-11 down the block, where an extremely hot chick in a thong bikini awaits my resuce. I say something really cool like "come on babe, lets blow this pop stand!" as I start the car, and we drive out of town at like 200 mph, both of us blasting away with our assult rifles that never seem to run out of bullets.

This is the scenario we have been training lately in the class I teach. Next week, we will train in a similar scenario involving a crew of pirates, a nuclear missle, a horse, and 10 playboy bunnies who need to be rescued.

Man, I thought I was the only one training this scenario. :rofl:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Oh...RIGHT!

Like you're going to run into a hot chick in a thong bikini in THAT scenario! That is like SO unrealistic...

When training that, though...make sure you aim for the heads of the zombies. Hit 'em anywhere else and it won't work.



Regards,


Steve

 

[pmk]

It must be an interesting dillema for many an instructor.
do you:
1. practice technique, spar, train etc in a regimented manner. Plus point- students may be able to act instictively and don't nessesarily develop a false image of their ability. Minus point- an out of dojo experience may stun them.
2. encourage and practice role play situations in the dojo. Plus point- devoloping an open mind towards possibilities. Minus point- it may encourage students to over indulge in 'meladramas' in their minds and lead them to believe they can cope with almost any real life situation.

the answer, I think, is to take a practical and open minded approach, but more importantly, if you are teaching, to make students aware of both aspects of their training and how it may effect the way they will think and react.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

An "out of dojo" experience may indeed stun them. I think that would be the point. Once moved from their comforts zone and into an environment far less pleasant than they're accustomed (and dressed as they would normally) they would find that they'd have to modify--or would have an opportunity to modify (one sounds negative, the other is positive) their techniques.

One scenario I can think of...you go to a parking lot or parking garage, hand one of your students a set of keys and say "The car down there...the Ford Escort, is yours. Get into it and drive it over here."

They could be jumped on the way to a car by a "bad guy".

They could be attacked while in the car, from inside (see if they check the back seat)

They could be attacked while in the car, but from the outside (did they lock the other doors once inside?)

You could take it further by having them outside the parking garage, telling them the car is on level three, and they have to get into it. They then have even further to walk. "Bad guys" would have more options.

Have each student do it singly, and not be allowed to talk to the other students following their "attack". Vary the attack scenarios and then debrief the class with each student telling what happened, how they were attacked, etc. Bad guys and instructors would be allowed to share their observations.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Cruentus]

In my spare time, I dress up in all black, a black stocking hat, and black mask, hamburgler style, over my eyes, and I ambush my students with various weapons in different situations to keep them up to speed; situations like walking to their cars, at the movies with a date, at church, in stalls at public bathrooms, etc.

:rofl:

Now, in all seriousness, I think that scenarios need to be discussed more-so then mimicked in training. When it all breaks down, its all the same. Defending against a punch, kick, knife on knife, knife + blunt weapon, blunt weapon, etc. is the same whether I am at a crowded bar, on ice, in a parking garage, or in the dojo. The fact is, NO training situation can be created to mimick exactly what will happend in real life. The best we can do is train as realistically as we can, and discuss and understand the different possible scenarios.

Some situation training every once and a while is O.K. for perspective, such as working on techniques sitting in a chair, or drills where someone has a training knife and their job is to attack you once the weapon of opportunity (usually a stick) is thrown on to the mats (and your job is to grab the weapon to defend against the knife) for example. Practicing techniques under certian conditions can be worthwhile too, such as practicing kata or movements on ice and snow, which I sometimes do.

However, I think that some people get far too carried away with situation training. Monday we're going to run around with the lights off, Tuesday we're going to practice bo staff between cars in the parking lot, wednesday little Timmys mom voluntered her house so we can practice our techniques if we are lying in bed in our boxer shorts and someone breaks in, and she will be in the shower nekkid. Women in the class, borrow your husbands shorts! Well, you get the idea. Situtaion training can get real stupid real fast. In my opinion, with the bulk of training focused on real elaborate and ridicules situations, all your doing is building up false confidence rather then real skill. What people are doing when they get overly involved in scenario training is they are chasing the dream that their training will mimick exactly what will happend in reality. The sooner they realize that no training can fully simulate real life self defense, and that you will have to translate what you learn, the sooner their training can start to really be a benefit to their self defense skills.

Now, what scenarios do I think of. Lots. I read the crime stories and put myself in the victims shoes. However, none of what I have thought of fully mimicks the situations I have been in. None of what I will think of will fully mimick what could happend in the future either. No 2 situations are exactly the same, but when it comes to translating my technique to real life defense, it is all the same. SO, I don't dwell on it to much. I think it is best to be prepared; to discuss, to research. Yet to not to be fixated on any preconcieved ideas as to what will really happend. If your fixated on what you think will happend, your bound to be unpleasently surprised.

:asian:

 

[whackjob-san]

I read Funakoshi's book "Karate-Do: My Way Of Life" like a million years ago, but something he said in there has stuck with me since. He viewed every minute of every day, every thing he did and every person he met as situations in which he may need to defend himself. When he met someone at a party and shook their hand he thought of how he would react if this person took a swing at him, etc.

I try (keyword- TRY) to emmulate this mindset as much as I can. When I'm in the shower I think of how I would defend myself as I'm rinsing shampoo out of my hair. When I sleep I'm conscious of how I lay and what I'd do if someone rushed into the room. Sitting in a resteraunt I view every person in there as a potential threat, even sitting in my room by myself typing away I think about what I'd do if someone stuck in behind me and tried to strangle me. If I have questions or problems on how certain techniques could be applied in any of these situations I run through them with a friend at the dojo the next day. While training I break the monotony of repeating techniques by visualizing different attackers and different circumstances each time.

I also have the benefit of being extremely close friends with many of my training partners. We mess around with each other all the time, attacking each other out of the blue in every imaginable place. Helps to keep you on your toes, and answer alot of those "what would I do in THIS situation?" type questions.

 

[Matt Bernius]

One thing that no one has yet dscussed is what leads up to the attack and how to train that. Very rarely, unless you are dealing with a sociopath, does a self defense situation being with a punch being thrown. The attack began a whlie ago ad culminated in that. If you ask most people that have been in fights, words are usually exchanged first. TMA tends to be concerned with the immediate and we don't often address what lead up to that.

When it comes down to it attacks begin emotionally, then move to a verbal stage, and then to a physical stage. So our self defense training needs to move through each of these. I should note at this point that all of this is based on the ideas and concepts of Tony Blauer's Personal Defense Readiness system (http://www.tonyblauer.com):

My typically scenario begins with being approached on the street by a panhandler. He verbally shakes me down. Sometimes I'm able to convince him I have no money. Sometimes it escalates and he begins to threaten me. Sometimes he backs down, looks aways and then throws a punch. Sometimes that punch hits me. Sometimes he produces a weapon. Sometimes I attack before he uses the weapons. Sometimes he attacks first.

Another one is the bar fight scenario. I've spilled beer or taken someone's stool.

Another one is a fender bender.

Somedays it's a mugging.

And yes I do practice blind sociopath attacks as well. But even then I need to come up with how I let this person get so close to me.

All of these can be practice in a realisitic role playing scenario with two people or by ones self. And yes, I do verbally talk ot loud trying to defuse the situation.

Pound for pound I think this is some of the best self defense training possible. I still practice technqiues, work lock escapes and the like. You need to have those. But restricting self defense practice to beginning with the physical attack is IMHO rather limiting.

- Matt

 

[Matt Bernius]

One omre thought, honestly there really are not that many scenarios out there (counter to some opinions voiced here). What I would suggest id going to your local police department and see if they publish a "crime digest." Basically this is a document that would list for the past month summaries of all the major crimes in an area. In Rochester these are summaries of police reports that include the basic details of how the victem was approached and any dialog that led up to the mugging/attack. Once you have a handle on that it's pretty easy to "simulate" simmilar occurences in a school. Everyone needs to buy into it and the instructors need to keep things serious. But if you do that you'll be surprised at the results you'll get.

The side benefit is all students get to play real world attackers and begin to understand the preditor mindset. This in turn better protects them and helps them evaulate people's intents.

- Matt

 

[hardheadjarhead]

little Timmys mom voluntered her house so we can practice our techniques if we are lying in bed in our boxer shorts and someone breaks in, and she will be in the shower nekkid.

Paul...I REALLY need to come up and train with you.

True, situational training can, I suppose, get ridiculous. One has to look at the potentiality of the scenario.

The goal of such training is to show a student limitations of certain techniques, if anything. Like the ol' sidekick to the chest solution. It doesn't always work well in the car or an elevator. The bo training between the cars illustrated a good point. One will probably not have a bo in a self defense situation.

WHERE are people getting attacked in our community, HOW are they getting attacked, WHEN are they getting attacked, WHY are they getting attacked (Robbery? Rape? Domestic violence?), with WHAT are they getting attacked, and WHO is doing the attacking? This can be addressed realistically in a training course such as this.

Last week, for instance, the paper here reported three Zombie attacks, Paul. So I've started incorporating some of your training methodologies. I'm still doing auditions for the hot blonde in the thong bikini...please tell Timmy's mom.

Another one is the bar fight scenario. I've spilled beer or taken someone's stool. Another one is a fender bender.

I usually look at these as opportunities for the student to try and descalate, if possible. Officers arriving on the scene at such events tend to arrest both parties and charge both with misdemeanor disturbing of the peace (around here, anyway), and lawyers generally don't advise people to contest it. They pay a hundred bucks and walk...but with a criminal offense on their record. Pleading self defense can worsen things unless you've got a LOT of witnesses saying you did nothing provacatory and tried your best to defuse the situation.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Matt Bernius
One omre thought, honestly there really are not that many scenarios out there (counter to some opinions voiced here).
- Matt

I think I agree with more then I disagree. There are only a few type-cast scenarois, such as date rape, mugging, bar fight, etc.

Yet, what is infinate is the dynamics involved in the scenarios. My critique is that some programs try to cover all the dynamics when this is an impossability. No "mugging" or "car jacking" is exactly the same. We can cover what is similar, what to expect, and what we should do. Yet, I feel that people sometimes take these hypotheticals too far, per my explaination above.

 

[MA-Caver]

My life has taught me many lessons good and bad. From all of them, from a SD perspective... expect the unexpected. To plan this and imagine that and try and speculate what another person will or will not do. To guess what effect your MA training will have and how the other will respond... it's all impossible. One move I did on one person had the opposite effect on another when I did the same thing... this I was left with "okay moron (me) now what?"

We train and we practice and we drill. We have expectations but as long as we keep them minimal and accept whatever happens as it happens we can come out of the unexpected a lot better.

I watch and ward my surroundings all the time. Not in a paranoic manner but of one that doesn't like to be surprised. I've had enough (bad) surprises in my life. I'm gonna do what I can to avoid them.
Imagination may be more important than knowledge says Einstein but it's better to be realistic and go with the flow of things as they happen. The better trained we are the better we'll handle it.

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

No "mugging" or "car jacking" is exactly the same. We can cover what is similar, what to expect, and what we should do. Yet, I feel that people sometimes take these hypotheticals too far, per my explaination above.

But if we never train any scenarios, then we do nothing more than train...again...on a perfectly flat surface in an open area, with no furniture or other obstacles in our way and dressed in our doboks, gi's, or comfortable training attire.

Students who do this are in for a heck of a shock should they be attacked in a confined space or while dressed in something other than a gi.

Perhaps what I'm advocating isn't so much a scenario as "environmental training."

You mentioned training with the lights off as being an example of going too far. Police and military train for low light situations all of the time. Shouldn't we?

I've personally known two women who were attacked while in their cars...one my wife. Isn't that a worthwhile situation to address?




Regards,


Steve

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
But if we never train any scenarios, then we do nothing more than train...again...on a perfectly flat surface in an open area, with no furniture or other obstacles in our way and dressed in our doboks, gi's, or comfortable training attire.

Students who do this are in for a heck of a shock should they be attacked in a confined space or while dressed in something other than a gi.

Perhaps what I'm advocating isn't so much a scenario as "environmental training."

You mentioned training with the lights off as being an example of going too far. Police and military train for low light situations all of the time. Shouldn't we?

I've personally known two women who were attacked while in their cars...one my wife. Isn't that a worthwhile situation to address?


Regards,


Steve

I should probably clarify a bit more. In a nutshell, scenario training is fine, but it depends on your purpose for training. If we are talking long term martial arts training, not very nessicary. Other types of training (general self defense course, LEO, military) scanario training becomes much more nessicary.

So remember, I never said don't do scenarios, or never train under varied conditions. I just think that sometimes people who are supposed to be training in a martial arts class take it too far, and it is unessicary. Training in low light conditions is fine. Discussing and addressing the issue of being attacked in a confined space, like a car, is also fine. But if your supposed to be training in an actual martial art, such as Modern Arnis, or Kenpo, and yet scenario training overtakes your entire curriculim, or even a large amount of your curriculum, then I think you have a problem.

Now, as I said before, it does depend on what your training for. If its a general self defense course (not art specific) that runs maybe 4 consecutive weekends and your done, then sure, scenario training might be more prevalent. Reason: your training for self defense, and you are not training to be a better martial artist. Your not trying to improve your attributes or abilities as a fighter; you are simply using what you have RIGHT NOW to learn how to defend yourself. So, you learn a few simple stupid concepts, principles, and techniques, then you train scenarios.

LEO or Military are also not training to be better fighters or martial artists. They are trying to use whatever they have RIGHT NOW to do their job. So, they learn a different set of simple stupid principles then a civilian would, yet it is basically the same. Simple stupid concepts, techniques, then scenario training...done in a few weeks, moving on.

So, am I making sense here? LEO, Military, and civilian self defense do scenarios because they are not trying to improve their abilities as fighters, or martial artists. They are learning in a very short amount of time how to utilize what they have RIGHT NOW to defend themselves. So, they learn a few simple stupid concepts, then they drill scenarios so that these concepts can get integrated in their reactionary/response memories.

However, if you are learning a martial art to become a better fighter/martial artist, then the majority of your training should be spent learning your art. Why? because your trying to take your skill level to higher levels, and you have a few years to a lifetime to do it. Doing scenarios is fine under these circumstances, but getting carried away will only take away from your ability to learn your art.

Lengthy explaination, but am I making sense? :idunno:

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
I usually look at these as opportunities for the student to try and descalate, if possible. Officers arriving on the scene at such events tend to arrest both parties and charge both with misdemeanor disturbing of the peace (around here, anyway), and lawyers generally don't advise people to contest it. They pay a hundred bucks and walk...but with a criminal offense on their record. Pleading self defense can worsen things unless you've got a LOT of witnesses saying you did nothing provacatory and tried your best to defuse the situation.

Steve, one thing I don't beleive I communicated well enough was that the outcome of any of these scenarios is not fixed. Especially when working with a second person in the roll of the attacker. And that's imporant to keep it live. But by beginning at the emotional and verbal attack points you leave students the option to "talk their way" out of the scenario. Some times it works. Some times it doesn't. But the great part is, just like in the real world the defender doesn't know what the result will be until it happens. That keeps the drill live.

And, to Paul's point, because nothing is fixed in the drills you can explore the "little factors" of each scenario. You can add in environmental elements. Have a confrontation begin in a seated postition or in a restricted space.

Should this take over a TMA's training? No. Should it be a sub component. Personally (and I'm opinionated about this) if your school advertises teaching self defense and your not touching on this in class on a semi regular basis (a few times a year or so), then I think you're doing you students a disjustice. A little goes a long way with this and in my opinion is more important than teaching a prearranged self defense.

- Matt