What are Natural Movements?

[Zepp]

It seems to me, when I read descriptions of various martial arts, that it has become popular to say that an art is based on, or makes use of "natural movements." So, I've begun to wonder, what movements are natural, and what aren't? Obviously walking is natural. So is running. But what about punching? Isn't throwing a punch less of a natural movement than say, slapping someone with an open hand?

So here are the questions I'd really like to have your opinions on: How do you define natural movement? Or better yet, how does your martial art define natural movement? If your martial art is one that you would describe as being based on natural movements (or more natural than other styles), can you give examples of how this is so?

 

[TheBattousai]

I define natural movement by stating that it is what a person's movements would be without having focus. Like for instince, when you reach to your side to grab something like a hammer, that movement maybe focused and used for a backfist or backhand. Or when you reach to shake someone's hand, you can take that motion and make it a vertical fist strike to the stomach. Pretty much, one of the martial arts training purposes is to make things like throwing a punch as natural as shaking someone's hand.

 

[kroh]

One thing to always check is to see how long the martial art has been in existance. If it is some inovation within the last five years...give it time to mature and grow and then come back to it to see if these "natural movments" are still being taught ( if the person hasn't moved on to the next set of popular principles).

I am going to have to agree with TheBattosai on this one. Natural movments and principles are nothing new and have always been inside of good martial arts instruction. The reason you are seeing it more pronounced is that people are now trying to differrentiate themselves from all the other "innovative" martial arts people out there ("I'm different...just like all the other different people"). For example, one person I know of teaches a type of high sweeping block followed by a strike to the throat as, "Combing the hair and setting down the brush." It is a movment most people (with hair) do thousands of times and have seen thousands more. Put in those terms we can easily understand the movment and duplicate it.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Sin]

There is nothing natural about fighting...or martial arts for that matter. Hence the word "training". What is natural is muscle movement, and the way they recoil when tention is put on them. Natural movement also varies from one person to the next...Depending on how strong the muscles are, how big and how small.

 

[green meanie]

There is nothing natural about fighting...or martial arts for that matter. Hence the word "training". What is natural is muscle movement, and the way they recoil when tention is put on them. Natural movement also varies from one person to the next...Depending on how strong the muscles are, how big and how small.

I disagree. I think fighting's a very natural thing. People have been fighting since the beginning of time and will continue to fight whether they've have any training or not. Toddlers will fight over the same toy without be taught. If anything we're taught not to fight.

 

[Sin]

It is not natural or good to hurt another human...Yet most times it is necessary for peace. I agree with the learning not to fight...but that comes with wisdom, and we come to expect that from our instructors, but when you get people like the Bad guy from Karate kid teaching is when we become barbearions(sp) and have no control over ourselves. unless the few good people are willing to do something about it...Earth is the land of the plenty...its only the people in power that make it so evil

 

[BlackCatBonz]

There is nothing natural about fighting...or martial arts for that matter. Hence the word "training". What is natural is muscle movement, and the way they recoil when tention is put on them. Natural movement also varies from one person to the next...Depending on how strong the muscles are, how big and how small.

i couldnt disagree more.
Man has been fighting since there have been men.
we are animals....plain and simple.....animals fight to gain superiority for mating, territory, food, or pack supremacy.

people need to train themselves to "act naturally".........thats what training is.
when i see people fight, i always see them do things they wouldnt normally do outside of fighting (in martial arts anyway).
natural movement does not vary, not unless you have an extra arm or are dealing with less gravity.
there are certain things you do throughout the day that are natural........the trick is to look at your everyday life and think, "ok, what is natural movement?"

 

[7starmantis]

I think the act of fighting is "natural" but the movements and techniques used are not. At least not in my system. Its natural to meet force with force, but we train that out of our bodies. Its not natural to do alot of the techniques and movements and footwork, thats why you train in it, you want to get it natural to your body. I think of "natural movements" as basic reactionary movements, not something I train to use when fighting.

7sm

 

[kroh]

Sin...Two things...

1) WHile you make some great points in your posts, i disaggree that fighting is un-natural in that we have fighting instincts (such as putting our hands up or in the case of the child example, fisticuffs). And instincs are wholely natural.

2) I love the animated GIF in your signature...Awsome!

Regards,
Walt

 

[Sin]

Sin...Two things...

1) WHile you make some great points in your posts, i disaggree that fighting is un-natural in that we have fighting instincts (such as putting our hands up or in the case of the child example, fisticuffs). And instincs are wholely natural.

2) I love the animated GIF in your signature...Awsome!

Regards,
Walt

Thank you for your agree to disagree attitude...

I am speaking mostly from a spiritual point of view...This instinct is totally different than a fighting spirit...Instinct kicks in automaticlly...Fighting involves emotions and a damaged ego....A true martial artist will never fight, he will train his/her instincts to become sharper and easier to call upon when needed. That is why a martial artist can improvise when a certain technique fails in a comfrontation, his instincts kick in and it just happens....This is why a lot of Martial Artists sometimes have a problem turning it off and on...I have spoken to many people who have just reacted even when someone makes a sudden move around them, I know I've had difficulty with it.

 

[kroh]

That's a pretty cool way of looking at it Sin....
Regards,
Walt

 

[jdinca]

To me, natural movement is that movement that can happen without thinking about it, once it has become learned and ingrained. Walking is not natural to a toddler but it is natural movement a couple of years later, after much practice.

By extension, natural movement in MA would be that movement you have learned over time that is now ingrained in muscle memory and does not have to be thought about for it to happen. Anybody have problems getting the feet in the right spot when you first started doing fighting stances? How about a couple of years later? My guess is that you don't really need to think about foot placement anymore, it just happens. Would you now consider that to be natural movement, or not?

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is nothing natural about fighting...or martial arts for that matter. Hence the word "training". What is natural is muscle movement, and the way they recoil when tention is put on them. Natural movement also varies from one person to the next...Depending on how strong the muscles are, how big and how small.

This is a religious view. When your fist is on your hip for a thrust, the palm should be up. Everyone moves that way: short, fat, skinny, or tall.
Sean

 

[rmclain]

Hello everyone,

My teacher introduced the "Natural Way" (Chayon-Ryu) method of teaching martial arts in 1968. I would like to give a brief description of how this works and is used in teaching.

In short, natural motions can be anything your body uses for everyday "getting around," such as walking, running, body twisting, crossing your arms, etc. Everyone understands (beginners) how to move around from their everyday life and they are introduced on how to apply this for martial arts movements.

Example: Walking motion (in place, raising the knees) is simple, and is the basic foundation of knee strike in front and front kick. Arm-running motion is the foundation for various strikes in front and elbows behind the body. Body twisting, where you raise the opposite heel of the direction you are turning can be used for elbow striking, blocking, striking to the rear of your body and throwing (such as hip throw).

Under the Chayon-Ryu teaching method, we preserve several classic martial arts from a legitimate line of instructors. All of these arts are taught using the "natural way" philosophy. This has resulted in lowered injury rates (virtually zero) among our students since 1968, which are primarily adults, some in their 60's and 70's. Also, students can continue training into older ages because their is a lower chance of being injured (joints, muscles) from training.

My own experience teaching at my own dojang in Arlington since 1994, and instructing for-credit kinesiology courses at UT-Arlington of 200 students (50 per class, 4 classes, 2X per week, 16 weeks), has found that the students learn self-defense very quickly with the Natural Way method and without injury.

If anyone has any questions about this teaching method, feel free to contact myself by e-mail, [email protected] or contact the founder of the Chayon-Ryu (Natural Way) teaching method, Grandmaster Kim Soo, [email protected] He'll be 67 this year, still teaches 5 days a week, and has been training since 1950, teaching since 1957.

R. McLain

 

[arnisador]

When I hear this phrase I think of systems built on ideas like the Spear--that when attacked it's common to "flinch" in a way that brings your hands up, so why not build a technique off of that movement (by spearing forward with those raised arms). As for a punch, to my mind a cross is as natural as a reverse punch...not very, that is. For "natural" fighting, watch two five year olds windmilling their arms at one another and pushing each others' faces.

 

[Navarre]

Much like any discussion in The Study, this is likely to become a circular thread with very little resolution in sight. Still, I'll throw in my thoughts.

I'm closer to jdinca's line of reasoning. The natural movement is whatever movement results from a given situation. We aren't talking about a natural instinct or thought but a natural movement.

If something is threatening me my natural instinct might be aggressive but my movements will be controlled by virtue of my training. The training creates the natural movement for my body not the other way around.

When I watch my 3 yr old twins engage in any sort of aggression or physical "good-guy vs bad-guy" play they just swing their arms wildly at each other (as Arnisador said). Sometimes my son will throw a kick which is equally unfocused.

The little dude can't fight worth crap. But even so his movements are natural.

Even untrained adults will throw a much better punch. It becomes natural for them somewhere as they gain a better sense of their bodies, have physical experiences, or maybe watch The Matrix.

If I am in a situation where I must defend myself I flow with the attack, attempting to become one with my opponent's movement. I then initiate a lock, throw, or strike as available to end the situation in my favor.

It took 20 years of training to get this far and I have a lifetime to go. Nonetheless, my very best drop-throw roll-over choke-lock is no more or less natural than my three year old's aimless haymaker.

 

[Bigshadow]

I think of natural movement differently.... Visualize a toddler who is just beginning to walk. They are not necessarily picking up their feet and putting them down. They are falling at the hips and catching themselves with their feet. To me that is natural movment. Watch people walk, they bounce on their toes, their movement is started by their heads, or their feet, not their hips. That is not balanced. Walking is falling, just that you catch yourself with your feet. Natural is balanced. Un-natural is the learned behavior we have incorporated as we grew. Watch a child just learning how to walk, when they fall, the don't stiffen up and SMACK the ground, they fall on their bum or sometimes fall forward, but they are relaxed.

IMHO, these are characteristics of natural movement.

 

[Flatlander]

It seems to me that there is a measure of subjectivity to what individuals would "naturally" move like in various situations. Some people are graceful and coordinated, others are not. Different body shapes will yeild different levels of effort for different responses and movements. I think natural is pretty hard to define.

I understand the "Spear" thing, and that makes sense. But it seems to me that it is in the "unnatural" or "trained" ways of movement that advantage can be found.

So, when asking what are "natural" movements, I would say maybe things like sheilding the face, grabbing appendages, turtling (not a very useful self defence technique, LOL) (but it's natural), running away, grabbing on and falling, hands to the face, twisting (when attempting to remove a weapon from the attacker's hands), stomping, flailing, and I'm sure that there are others that people can help me with here....

 

[Phoenix44]

What does that mean exactly? Does it mean that some martial arts use UNnatural movements?

To me it sounds like the usual BS-ology. Like "My martial art is purely defensive." As if your martial art is offensive ("OK, today we're going to learn how to attack an innocent bystander.")

 

[Zepp]

Much like any discussion in The Study, this is likely to become a circular thread with very little resolution in sight. Still, I'll throw in my thoughts.

I didn't really start this thread with the intent of reaching a resolution or consensus. I'm content to read as many different thought and opinions as we can get on this one.

I like all the responses I've read so far. If anyone has another opinion, or new insight, please share.

In fairness, I think I should also post this link to a much older thread on the same topic, http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15649. It didn't come up on the search for some reason.

("OK, today we're going to learn how to attack an innocent bystander.")

We learned that one at brown belt.