We're Not Afraid!

[sgtmac_46]

I have to question a couple of points:

I thought the world was upset at us for aggressively invading a country and occupying it without the country having any proven ties to the "big" terrorist organizations?

Are you referring to Afghanistan, which was harboring Al-Queda and allowed itself to be used as a base of operations by the terrorists. Because that's the country we invaded in response to 9/11.

You must, of course, be referring to Iraq. Iraq may have had nothing to do with 9/11, and of course of all the reasons given by the administratino for invading Iraq, having to do with 9/11 wasn't one of them.

Remember Desert Storm and Kuwait? Iraq was about 10 years of useless sanctions and about a violent dictator with a track record or attacking it's neighbors, AND support terrorist group (though that's secondary, but remember money for suicide bombers). During Saddam's "on-leash" time, he continued to attack US soldiers, and continued to defy the conditions of the cease fire...that is what we had, a conditional cease fire. Saddam needed to be dealt with before he could add enough members to the coalition of the bribed to get off of sanctions and back to business as usual.

Could you link the report that states we've thwarted anything except a few civies from getting on planes, or at least point me in the direction? I think an foiled attempt would be front page news, used by the media to fan the flames of our rampant nationalism.

Real successes aren't played out on the front page news. In fact, real successes usually involve long term intelligence operations that are played behind the scene. But i'll give you a list of a few high-ranking Al-Qaeda members captured or killed. The terrorists who actually plan and carry out terrorist attacks are an integral part of terrorist attacks.

Captured

Abdi, Nuradin[3]
Abu Ali, Ahmed Omar, suspect in plot to assassinate George W. Bush Akhtar, Qari Saifullah, suspect in attempted assassinations of Pakistani President Musharraf
Al-Ahdal, Mohammed Hamdi
Al-Badawi, Jamal USS Cole bombing suspect
al Bahal, Ali Hamza Ahmed Sulayman
Al-Bakri, Mukhtar
Al-Dosari, Juma
Al-Faruq, Omar
Al-Fawwaz, Khalid
Al-Ghalyoun, Ghasoub al-Abrash
Al-Haili, Abu Zubair
al-Harbi, Khaled
al-Kahtani, Mohamed
Al-Liby, Abu Anas, Embassy bombings suspect
Al-Libbi, Abu Faraj
Al-Libi, Ibn Al-Shaykh
al-Marabh, Nabil
al-Marri, Ali Saleh Kahlah
al-Nashiri, Abd al-Rahim Embassy and USS Cole bombing suspect
Al-Omari, Othman
Al-Owhali, Mohamed Rashed Daoud
al Qosi, Ibrahim Ahmed Mahmoud
al-Qusa, Fahd (Fahid al-Qasa) USS Cole Boming suspect
al-Saikhan, Rakan Mohsin Mohammed -sometimes reported killed
Al Shihri, Shaban
al-Sirouri, Mourad USS Cole bombing suspect
al-Tbaiti, Zuher
al-Zahrani, Faris Ahmed Jamaan al-Showeel, Saudi cleric
Ali-Haimoud, Farouk, "Detroit cell"[4]
Alwan, Sahim
Ameuroud, Abderrahmane, jailed for helping in the assassination of Ahmad Shah Masood
Arnaout, Enaam M.
Arochi, Masrab
Badat, Saajid Mohammed
Babar, Mohammed Junaid
Ballaki, Samir Abdullah Mohammed
Barakat, Imad
Barot, Dhiren also called Abu Eisa al-Hindi or Abu Musa al-Hindi
Bary, Adel Mohanned Abdul Almagid
Battle, Jeffrey Leon
Beghal, Djamel
Benyaich, Abdelaziz
Benayich, Salahadin
Bhatti, Mohammed Naveed
Bilal, Ahmed Ibrahim
Binalshibh, Ramzi
bin Attash, Tawfiq aka Khallad
Brahim, Ahmed
Charkaoui, Adil
Chekkouri, Redouan
Chekkouri, Younes
Chekkouri, Yassine
Dahoumane, Abdelmajid, imprisoned in Algeria
Daoudi, Kamel
Eidarous, Ibrahim Hussein Abdel Hadi
Youssef el Aouni, jailed for helping in the assassination of Ahmad Shah
Masood
El-Hage, Wadih
Ellattah, Ahmed
Elmardoudi, Abdel-Ilah, "Detroit cell", convicted of terrorism and fraud[5]
Elzahabi, Mohamad Kamal
Faris, Iyman
Feroze, Junade
Ford, Patrice Lumbumba
Galab, Faysal
Ghailani, Ahmed Khalfan, Embassy bombings suspect
Goba, Yahya
Hannan, Ahmed, "Detroit cell"[6], terrorism charges dropped[7]
Haq, Zia Ul
Hijazi, Raed
Isamuddin, Riduan aka "Hambali"
Jalil, Abdul Aziz
Khan, Muhammad Naeem Noor, Computer expert (may be pseudonym)
Khemais, Essid Sami Ben
Koubriti, Karim, "Detroit cell", convicted of terrorism and fraud[8] (or was he?[9])
Khadr, Omar
Kurnaz, Murat
Lewis, October Martinique
Maaroufi, Tarek
Mohamed, Khalfan Khamis, convicted Embassy bomber
Mohammed, Khalid Sheik
Mosed, Shafal
Moussaoui, Zacarias
Murad, Abdul Hakim
Msouh, Maamoun, one of the USS Cole bombers
Naseeb, Abdul Raouf
Odeh, Mohammed Sadiq, convicted Embassy bomber
Padilla, Jose (there is a lot of controversy over whether or not he really is an Al-Qaeda member)
Reid, Richard ("the shoe bomber")
Rehman, Omar Abdur
Robert, Pierre Richard Robert
Ressam, Ahmed
Roche, Jack[10]
Saleh, Ali Mohamed USS Cole bombing suspect
Imam Samudra
Satut, Bassan Dalati
Shaffi, Quaisir
Slahi, Mohamedou Ould
Taher, Yaseinn
Talha, Abu
Tarmohamed, Nadeem
Tebourski, Adel, jailed for helping in the assassination of Ahmad Shah Masood
Trabelsi, Nizar
Ujaama, James
Shah, Wali Khan Amin
Yarkas, Imad , alleged Spanish cell leader
Yousef, Ramzi
Zammar, Mohammed Haydar
Zemiri, Ahcene
Zouaydi, Mohammed Galeb Kalaje
Zougam, Jamal
Zubaydah, Abu
Ahmed, Rabei Osman (11 March 2004 Madrid attacks suspect)
[edit]


Dead

Abdelmajid, Serhane Ben (11 March 2004 Madrid attacks suspect)
Ahmidan, Jamal (Madrid attacks suspect)
Akcha, Oulad (Madrid attacks suspect)
Akcha, Rachid (Madrid attacks suspect)
al-Mojati, Kareem Altohami
Ahmad, Tariq Anwar Al-Sayyid
al-Airi, Youssef
al-Dakhil, Faisal
al Durayhim, Ibrahim
Al-Ghamdi, Ahmed
Al-Ghamdi, Hamza
Al-Ghamdi, Saeed
Al-Harethi, Ali Qaed Sinan
Al-Hazmi, Nawaf
Al-Hazmi, Salem
Al-Haznawi, Ahmed
Al-Jaziri Abu Jafar
Al-Kadr, Ahmad Said
Al-Mezeini, Ibrahim bin Abdul-Aziz bin Mohammed
Al-Midhar, Khalid
al-Misawa, Abdullah USS Cole bomber
al-Motairi, Nasser Ali Saad, Riyadh suicide bomber
Al-Muqrin, Abdel Aziz
al Muteiri, Turki
Al-Nami, Ahmed
al-Obeid, Dakheel Abdul Aziz Dakheel Mohammad, Riyadh suicide bomber
Al-Omari, Abdulaziz
al-Osaimi, Mohammad Mohsen, Riyadh suicide bomber
al-Rashud, Abdullah Mohammed Rashid
Al-Sha'ir, Abu Hazim also called Kahlid Ali Hajj
Al-Shehhi, Marwan
Al-Shehri, Mohald
Al-Shehri, Wail
Al-Shehri, Waleed
al-Subaiei, Abdullah Saud, Riyadh suicide bomber
Al-Suqami, Satam
al-Thawr, Ibrahim USS Cole bomber
Al-Yemeni Abu Salah
Atef, Mohammed
Atta, Mohammed
Banihammad, Fayez
Benayich, Abdullah
Derwish, Kamal
Farooqi, Amjad Hussain
Haj, Khaled Ali
Hanjour, Hani
Jarrah, Ziad
Khadr, Ahmed Said
Kounjaa, Abdennabi (Madrid attacks suspect)
Lamari, Allekema (Madrid attacks suspect)
Moqed, Majed
Rifaat, Asri (Madrid attacks suspect)
Said, Ahmed
Salah, Mohammed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alleged_Al-Qaida_members Click on any of the above names for a complete file on each of them.

This is just a small list, but all of these subjects were involved in ongoing operations against the US and it's allies, and many of them represent high-ranking members of Al-Qaeda. Some of them were arrested or killed trying to plan or carry out operations. It's a small list, and doesn't represent anything close to the total successes enjoyed by the US in the war on terror, but I hope it helps answer your questions about our successes post 9/11.

disagree. Our intelligence may be more heavily scrutinized post-atrocity, which by all means is a good thing. This does not make us any less of a target, though. As you had said yourself, these fanatics killed thousands of people in one shot here. They made their statement. If they have to make another one, they will.

Yes, and it has been harder for them to operate without key members. Our aggressive response protects us, it doesn't make us more of a target.

I agree that it is naive to assume we will not be attacked again within our borders. IMO, we have squandered our resources (and our good will) in Iraq, when we could have pursued Bin Laden, and invested more heavily in port and border security, airport screening, and human intelligence.

By the way, did you forget about the bombing in front of the British Consulate in NYC on May 5, 2005 ?

So it is good will that keeps us from getting attacked? lol. The idea that we took resources away from pursuing Bin Laden is a myth. As for defensive measures, and improving them, they account for nothing taken by themselves. Only an offensive against the enemy will be successful, hiding in our shell is exactly what we SHOULDN'T do.

For too long the US has cowered in the face of terrorism. Our dealings with Iran and it's state sponsored terrorism for 20 plus years emboldened the terrorists that we are a paper tiger.

Machiavelli was right, it is better to be feared than loved. We made the mistake of not only not being feared, but being hated. Hate, without fear, is what has emboldened our attackers. They should fear our resolve....though, sometimes I have to wonder "What resolve?". Perhaps our attackers are right not fear our resolve...perhaps we really don't have any.

It isn't the terrorists hate for us that we should worry about, it's their contempt for us that we should be concerned with. All this power, they must think, and we lack the will to even use it. Our enemies believe that raw power is nothing compared to the power of will. They may be right.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Now some of are missing what we HAVE achieved......
Isolationism being one.
Fear and suspision of those who are different from us.
New and totally rediculous laws to RESTRAIN the innocent(NOT protect) like the governments like to spew on almost a daily basis.
Ya know,now they are talking about making it criminal offence here(in the UK) if you leave ANYTHING unattended in public,even if it IS an actual accident.
Innocent people have to basically be stripped search in public just to board a plane.
Busses will be next.then cabs.....BICYCLES?
We're might as well have a neked society to protect the innocent!
I can see it now.......
"Stop squinting at me lady"!
This whole idea of "we're protecting the innocent" is turning out to be a crock.
There have been far more "good guys" killed,imprisoned,detained or whatever,than the bad guys.Why?
They are still being effective while we are losing grip.
And for those who may think I am saying we should be sheep...YOU can get bent.
This a war started by stupid people.Propagated by stupid people.
And being maintained by stupid people.
What would have happened if we didn't do anything but give the bad guys the finger and picked ourselves up and carried on with our lives?
We'll never know at this point since some idiot decided it was his responsibility to police the world at every cost he can muster except his own.
The US is not the world police.
Everybody knows Bush is a liar and an idiot.He's got 3 years left and he's done. You REALY think all this will be over by then? Hell no.
Bush and his cronies go home,fat dumb and happy......and innocent people will still be dying for what he has done.
And with everyone knowing bush is a liar and an idiot.....how ar we supposed to take his messeges when he says:" we are doing this to protect the innocent"?
and thier death toll far out numbers those who we are supposed to be going after.
Ya know what the "bad people" HAVE achieved?!
They got us fighting amongst ourselves.........
THAT is the best "terrorist" trick anyone has ever come up with.

Actually, many of us understand that the terrorists are the enemy. A few, though, seem to want to make this about their fellow citizens. Thank you for illustrating that point effectively. What would have happened if we had done nothing but thrown them the finger and moved on? Same thing that always happens when you don't fight back against criminals and terrorists...they break your finger off and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. You don't fight back, and they know victory is just a few bombs away. I guess the spirit of Neville Chamberlain is alive and well in the western world. Peace in our times? At any cost? lol. Ask the spirit of Hitler what happens when you don't fight back.

Do I honestly have fellow citizens who simply want to knuckle under and crawl in a hole? If this mindset is indicative of a large percentage of people, perhaps Al-Qaeda hasn't underestimated us afterall. Perhaps Al-Qaeda has a better feel for the pulse of our societies than I do. It's a brave new world out there, but it apparently doesn't belong to us anymore.

As for rights i've lost, I keep asking the same question, and getting the same answer...silence. What rights? Name one right i've lost since 9/11. I'll be awaiting a reasoned reply.

A brave people doesn't have to worry about losing rights to fight the enemy. There's no need to lose rights here, if we decide to fight them there.

 

[Marginal]

That's why I didn't put quotes around timid sheephood. Fear and anger do not always go hand in hand. Sometimes fear just runs screaming in to the night. Fear coupled with anger is far more useful than fear alone. Weak-willed people respond with fear. Stronger willed people respond with fear and anger. [/b]

Useful people respond with rationality.

Anger and fear nets you a song about sticking boots up people's nether regions.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Useful people respond with rationality.

Anger and fear nets you a song about sticking boots up people's nether regions.

Fear also gets you statements like "Lets not make these folks more angry than we already are" and "What have we done that could have made these people want to hurt us."

There is nothing more rational in the words "All we are saying, is give peace a chance" than in the country song you are referring to. They are both emotionally charged songs based on an emotional point of view.

But you are right...a cold, rational, surgical response is always called for in these situations, which is what I endorse. Responding to a violent threat should be done with cold deliberation. It is cold, rational, measured violence, coupled with steely resolve, that evokes fear in our present enemy. Now that's useful.

 

[Marginal]

Fear also gets you statements like "Lets not make these folks more angry than we already are" and "What have we done that could have made these people want to hurt us."

IMO, the first quote's not possible if they're already suicide bombing various targets. Would seem to at least hint that the hornet's nest has already been kicked. The second question's not really a fearful response as I see it. You tick someone off there's going to be a consequence. Something to consider for the next time around. A stitch in in time will save nine and all that.

But you are right...a cold, rational, surgical response is always called for in these situations, which is what I endorse. Responding to a violent threat should be done with cold deliberation. It is cold, rational, measured violence that evokes fear in the enemy. Now that's useful.

Yep. It's more a question of where to spray the Raid.

 

[Tgace]

How about all you counter terrorism experts outline your action plan for how to deal with the terrorism issue?

 

[sgtmac_46]

IMO, the first quote's not possible if they're already suicide bombing various targets. Would seem to at least hint that the hornet's nest has already been kicked. The second question's not really a fearful response as I see it. You tick someone off there's going to be a consequence. Something to consider for the next time around. A stitch in in time will save nine and all that.

So your conclusion is that if someone is ticked off at you, you're wrong? It could be, such as with a mugger or a rapist, that they just want to take from you? Or it couldn't be that they just want to destroy you? It has to be something that you did to deserve being a victim? That whole line of thought seems to be built on the most irrational and most ineffectual brand of fear. It's the kind of fear that gets gazelles eaten on the savanah.

Yep. It's more a question of where to spray the Raid.

The question isn't where, we already know the answer to that question. THe question is how much and do we have the courage and resolve to push the plunger enough times?

How about all you counter terrorism experts outline your action plan for how to deal with the terrorism issue?

My guess is an adaptation of the famous and successful "SniVeL" conflict resolution method endorsed domestically. http://www.coalitionforguncontrol.org/snivel.htm

or as Declain McCormack put it http://goldwater.mideastreality.com/2004/mar/terroristhappy.html