Weak side breaking training?

[exile]

I'm very curious to know how many of you folks who regularly train breaking try to develop your weaker side breaking abilities.

This isn't just idle curiosity; I'd like to know, because it seems to me that if you view breaking, as I do, as a way to quantify your effective power delivery to a suitable target, then you need to know how well you're doing on your weak side, as well as the side you're `handed' in. So, for example, I'm right-handed, and can fairly reliably break a three-board stack of 1" pine boards with that hand. But my default tactical response to a grab or punch is to try to go `outside' the attacker, using a `fence'-based deflection, and come in very close with an elbow/knifehand strike to high-valued targets above the collarbone. Since the attack—a grab or punch, say—will probably come from the attacker's right side, my going outside means that my right hand will be engaged primarily in deflection and then entrapment/anchoring of the attacking limb, which means it's my left hand/arm which will have to deliver the strike to the assailant's throat, let's say. So it would be worth my while to maximize my power delivery with that hand, but I have to say that, although I practice defense/counterattack against an attacker's righthand moves as much as possible, I have never developed breaking skills with my left hand. And that means that I don't really have an objective measure of how much power I can deliver to the attacker's larynx, carotid sinus or whatever.

Do any of you systematically work to develop symmetrical breaking skills? And if you do, what has been your experience with your weak side breaking abilities?

 

[still learning]

Hello, I think you already know the answer to this question?

Breaking boards/bricks is just objects...you will always want to use your stronger side. BUT I bet you can still break 3 one inch boards with your weaker side.

Everyone has (most people) a stronger side...human nature. BUT your weaker side is NOT that far behind in strenght from your stronger side.

We use one side of our arms more...hense it gets a little more stronger than the other side. Is this important in BREAKING? Nope.

Off course we all want to develop more strenght in our so call "weaker side". If you were to hit someone with the weaker arm? ..you still should cause some damages...Keep in mind the weaker arm is just a little BIT WEAKER....Not sure of the percentage? maybe 96% vs 100% of the stronger arm.

How many times you see people get knock-out with the Jab punch (weaker side)....

Do you need to break with the weaker side? ....Nope! Do we need to worker harder to built strenght on the weaker side? Yes, We all need to do that. push-up with two hands, climp up a tree with two hands,swim with two hands, touch with two hands..? UM

Aloha (from the weaker side typing this materials)..we use two hands while typing....

PS: Toilet....Do you use the stronger side arm or weaker side? ....wipe out! Learn both ways? built the use of using each side... For cleaning

 

[exile]

Hello, I think you already know the answer to this question?

Actually, I don't. I'm seeking input exactly because I don't have any idea of what the answer is, or what people's experience is. I've never done any weak side breaking, nor have I ever asked anyone previously about it, either in personal conversation or on MT. For some reason, it's something I've started thinking about only very recently...

Breaking boards/bricks is just objects...you will always want to use your stronger side. BUT I bet you can still break 3 one inch boards with your weaker side.

I'm not so sure. The fact is, as I say, I've never even attempted it; I find the prospect somewhat intimidating.

Everyone has (most people) a stronger side...human nature. BUT your weaker side is NOT that far behind in strenght from your stronger side.

We use one side of our arms more...hense it gets a little more stronger than the other side. Is this important in BREAKING? Nope.

It's not strength so much... I'm strong in both arms, I know that; but my left side is hopelessly uncoordinated and... badly calibrated, is the way I think of it, compared with my right. In the same general kind of way that the tip of your tongue can touch many more places in your mouth, more accurately, than the back of your tongue, I have a much better sense of where things are, and how to get things done, with my right hand than my left.

Off course we all want to develop more strenght in our so call "weaker side". If you were to hit someone with the weaker arm? ..you still should cause some damages...Keep in mind the weaker arm is just a little BIT WEAKER....Not sure of the percentage? maybe 96% vs 100% of the stronger arm.

How many times you see people get knock-out with the Jab punch (weaker side)....

Do you need to break with the weaker side? ....Nope! Do we need to worker harder to built strenght on the weaker side? Yes, We all need to do that. push-up with two hands, climp up a tree with two hands,swim with two hands, touch with two hands..? UM

Aloha (from the weaker side typing this materials)..we use two hands while typing....

PS: Toilet....Do you use the stronger side arm or weaker side? ....wipe out! Learn both ways? built the use of using each side... For cleaning

If you're saying that the only way to do it is to do it, you'll get no argument from me! What I'm curious about is whether or not anyone else has actually bothered to develop both-side capability in breaking, and if they did, how long did it take, and what did they experience while they were learning—expecially, what challenges, and how did they overcome them? That sort of thing.

 

[foot2face]

At my school there was no such thing as being left-handed or right-handed, you had to be equally proficient with both sides. There were no exceptions for breaking. When I tested for my BB I had to preform a break with each hand and foot. I started training fairly young and never encountered any problems with right vs. left side, but there were older students who felt uncomfortable with their weak side so master would drill them extra hard on those techniques until they were on par with their strong side.

The solution is very simple but extremely tedious. You have to train your brain to rely on you weaker side. Start with with simple tasks like opening doors, using the remote and brushing your teeth, gradually increase difficulty to include task that require finer motor skills. When training your MA, every technique you preform once with your strong side do twice with you weak side until there is no perceived difference.

Good Luck- Foot2Face

 

[exile]

At my school there was no such thing as being left-handed or right-handed, you had to be equally proficient with both sides. There were no exceptions for breaking. When I tested for my BB I had to preform a break with each hand and foot. I started training fairly young and never encountered any problems with right vs. left side, but there were older students who felt uncomfortable with their weak side so master would drill them extra hard on those techniques until they were on par with their strong side.

So the idea is, just keep doing it... I'm in the opposite situation from you; I started MAs in my middle 50s. And I've always been radically right-sided. Strength, coordination, the whole works.

The solution is very simple but extremely tedious. You have to train your brain to rely on you weaker side. Start with with simple tasks like opening doors, using the remote and brushing your teeth, gradually increase difficulty to include task that require finer motor skills. When training your MA, every technique you preform once with your strong side do twice with you weak side until there is no perceived difference.

Good Luck- Foot2Face

Thanks, f2f. I'm planning on starting in the next day or two on single 1" boards...

I think your case is the exception; most people I know started MA later in life, after they had become `lateralized' one way or the other. Lefties are known to be more comfortable on either side—not because they're compelled to adjust to a right-handed world, but because they're neurologically different (which shows when they have strokes: the clinical evidence is pretty clear that left-handers who have strokes tend to lose their language functions to a much lesser degree, because those functions are more evenly divided across the halves of the brain than righties, and the uninjured side can take over tasks from the injured side more easily). Righties who start later on... well, they just have to get on with it, I guess.

Anyway, thanks again for the encouragement. :asian:

 

[Kacey]

Foot2Face is correct, IMHO; the only way to be able to use your "weaker" side is to train with it. People will, consistently, train with whichever techniques they like/do better, and more often will train the side that "works" better... with the result that the side that is "weaker" doesn't get the same training, just like the techniques that are "harder" don't get the same training - with the result that the "weaker" side stays "weaker" and the "harder" techniques stay "harder".

Here's something else to consider: many people, while stronger on their dominant side, are more flexible on their non-dominant side, but they don't realize it. Even after so long in TKD, my left side is still slightly less coordinated than my right - but my left side is more flexible, while my right side is stronger. This is more apparent with my legs than my hands - I was ambidextrous as a child, and while I can't write very legibly with my left hand, I can do nearly everything else. For IV Dan, I broke one cement tile with each hand, simultaneously. At that point, "weaker" and "stronger", "dominant" and "non-dominant" became meaningless - what was important was the ability to coordinate them.

If you want to break with your non-dominant side, it's going to be harder at the outset - but the only way to do it is to train for it. It won't seem as "natural" as your dominant side - it may never seem as "natural" - but it can be effective... and if what you're really training for is self-defense, you need to train both sides of your body to be equally effective, or what's the point?

 

[exile]

Foot2Face is correct, IMHO; the only way to be able to use your "weaker" side is to train with it. People will, consistently, train with whichever techniques they like/do better, and more often will train the side that "works" better... with the result that the side that is "weaker" doesn't get the same training, just like the techniques that are "harder" don't get the same training - with the result that the "weaker" side stays "weaker" and the "harder" techniques stay "harder".

I've always had to make an effort of will to train difficult kicks on the left side, so I'm all too aware of the temptation to avoid extending myself on my (much) weaker side. What I've found is that the only way around it is to do extra on that side. If I'm going to do seventy sidekicks with my right leg, sometimes I'll do one hundred with the left. As my weightlifting buddies used to like to say, it doesn't matter whether or not you enjoy doing it, as long as you do it....

Here's something else to consider: many people, while stronger on their dominant side, are more flexible on their non-dominant side, but they don't realize it. Even after so long in TKD, my left side is still slightly less coordinated than my right - but my left side is more flexible, while my right side is stronger. This is more apparent with my legs than my hands - I was ambidextrous as a child, and while I can't write very legibly with my left hand, I can do nearly everything else. For IV Dan, I broke one cement tile with each hand, simultaneously. At that point, "weaker" and "stronger", "dominant" and "non-dominant" became meaningless - what was important was the ability to coordinate them.

Funny that you mention that... I don't know about flexibility so much, but I have better balance on my left leg than my right leg, even though my right leg (and hip flexors) are much stronger than my left...

If you want to break with your non-dominant side, it's going to be harder at the outset - but the only way to do it is to train for it. It won't seem as "natural" as your dominant side - it may never seem as "natural" - but it can be effective... and if what you're really training for is self-defense, you need to train both sides of your body to be equally effective, or what's the point?

Exactly!—that was my concern behind the original question—along with a more detached kind of curiosity about how many people really do train the two sides roughly symmetrically. The self-defense aspect makes symmetry really important; you can't exactly count on your worst-case nightmare assailant to be especially cooperative and come in on you with a left-hand attack so that you can use your own left hand/arm to deflect and your right hand to counterstrike...

I actually tried a lefthand board break, for the first time ever, a little while ago, and got it on my second attempt. So apparently it's possible... and thanks, I appreciate your input, Kacey.

 

[Phoenix44]

If I relied on my strength, I'd never be able to break anything!

I am MAJORLY right-handed, I'm not particularly strong. I've trained bilaterally, my technique is approximately as good left as right. I know I can break three boards with a right hand reverse punch, and I don't see why I shouldn't be able to do the same lefty.

Bottom line? Strength is good, but technique rules.

 

[Last Fearner]

I'm very curious to know how many of you folks who regularly train breaking try to develop your weaker side breaking abilities.

What's a "weaker side?"


I agree with what has been said about the strength being not much different, and you can always increase the "strength" of your muscles on either side. The issue really is coordination between brain and body. Try the old "pat your head and rub your tummy." Then switch which hand is on your head. Then try to rub your head and pat your tummy. Then switch the hands again. If you have any difficulty with adjusting, then practice each movement individually until the brain "learns" which signals to send to which muscles. Then practice getting better at doing both at the same time.

I have always been taught that a Martial Artist does not fight on one side or the other (like a boxer typically does - - right hand or south paw). We switch regularly. Whenever I learned a new technique as a student, I practiced it just as hard on both sides. I try to force myself to be ambidextrous in everyday life (but I do allow some dominance to occur).

For board breaking, I always practice each and every technique on both sides, and I require my students to do the same. I could not imagine someone training for a very long time, and never have broken a board with their left hand, or left foot (unless physical injury prevented it), but there is no time like the present to start!

Take the movement slow at first. Analyze every inch of the process as your brain studies the muscles that are needed and gradually pick up the speed. Break on your "less coordinated side" 10 to 50 times a day, and you will eventually feel the comfortableness, confidence, and coordination of these breaks. After a while, you won't even think twice about it, or notice a difference between breaking on one side or the other.

Starting later in life might feel like more of a challenge, but don't let that be a mental roadblock. Your brain is capable of learning new things, and developing coordinated action with practice - - so practice, practice, PRACTICE! :mst:

Have fun, good luck, see you at the Meet and Greet! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[stoneheart]

I'm afraid I don't have time to add much other than this: I train with makiwara and heavy bags. My repetition rate on my weaker side as probably 60% of total training. I do want to have equal ability on either side, but I recognize it's silly to take away from a strength so I don't want to overemphasize the weak side TOO much.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't tend to do breaking in my training, but this issue has definitely come up. The kenpo arts tend to be right-handed in design, but I always train both sides for a more uniform development. Interestingly, in the kenpo world, some view this as something approaching heresy. Oh well. It works for me and I have very definite reasons for doing it.

If you are interested, I can give you the link to one of these discussions going on right now. Might give you some perspective.

 

[stoneheart]

Link away, Michael. Thanks.

 

[Flying Crane]

Link away, Michael. Thanks.

Alrighty then.

This thread was started here on Martialtalk not too long ago.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52524&highlight=kenpo+lefties

and was linked over to the sister site, Kenpotalk, where those folks have been discussing it.

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5779&highlight=kenpo+lefties

I'll give a little background info so you non-kenpo people can better understand the discussion.

When we refer to a Technique, or a Self Defense Technique, we are referring to a standardized response to a specific attack. This is how the curriculum is structured in many kenpo systems. We have many of these techniques, designed to provide an idealized answer to a variety of attacks. ONce you understand this idealized technique, you are able to experiment and alter and adjust the standard tech to meet variations in an actual attack. Or so the theory goes...

We tend to speak of Basics, when referring to things like a punch, or a block, or a kick, outside the context of a Self Defense Technique.

I think nobody disputes the need to practice basics on both sides. But the techniques are presented typically from a right-handed perspective, and many people believe it is enough to only practice them unilaterally. I disagree.

As far as this thread goes, I tend to not do any breaking, so that is not how I develop or judge my power. I do train on the heavybag, all the basics as well as some combos taken from the techs, and I have a good sense of my power from that.

But for those who do use breaking, I would suggest it is a good idea to do so on both sides. If that is your yardstick, measure both sides.

 

[exile]

What's a "weaker side?"

Well, for me, it's very much along the lines that some famous celebrated Supreme Court Justice said about smut—`I can't define it for you exactly, but I know it when I see it!' My left side isn't just weaker, but it at times feels like it's under the control of someone else... someone who isn't too coordinated!

I agree with what has been said about the strength being not much different, and you can always increase the "strength" of your muscles on either side. The issue really is coordination between brain and body.

Exactly. I just do not have the same quality of `body-sense', if I can put it like that, on my left side...

Try the old "pat your head and rub your tummy." Then switch which hand is on your head. Then try to rub your head and pat your tummy. Then switch the hands again. If you have any difficulty with adjusting, then practice each movement individually until the brain "learns" which signals to send to which muscles. Then practice getting better at doing both at the same time.

A good test—and boy, what a difference...

I have always been taught that a Martial Artist does not fight on one side or the other (like a boxer typically does - - right hand or south paw). We switch regularly. Whenever I learned a new technique as a student, I practiced it just as hard on both sides. I try to force myself to be ambidextrous in everyday life (but I do allow some dominance to occur).

There was a time in my life when I played a lot of four-wall handball... and that was the only time when I had even a vague impression of what real ambidexterity would involve. If that game doesn't bring your two sides into some kind of equality, nothing will... I should have stuck with it, like so many other things...

For board breaking, I always practice each and every technique on both sides, and I require my students to do the same. I could not imagine someone training for a very long time, and never have broken a board with their left hand, or left foot (unless physical injury prevented it), but there is no time like the present to start!

I've actually done this now a few times... it feels utterly alien, but it works. I'm not sure why, though. I don't know if this is a common experience, but although I have a lot of sheer strength in my left arm, it never feels as though it's there. There's an additional complication: when I was a student, I had a very bad fall on a wet ramp which led to my left elbow—the ulna bone, specifically—being shattered; I was in surgery under a general for several hours, and, it took me several decades, and a series of operations, to regain full extension in that arm. It's never felt quite right since then, though it's better now than it was, by far...

Take the movement slow at first. Analyze every inch of the process as your brain studies the muscles that are needed and gradually pick up the speed. Break on your "less coordinated side" 10 to 50 times a day, and you will eventually feel the comfortableness, confidence, and coordination of these breaks. After a while, you won't even think twice about it, or notice a difference between breaking on one side or the other.

Fortunately, I have a very good rebreakable, so doing 10 breaks (and up) a day with it is something I can afford. I've been experimenting with it, and with some real pine boards, using my left hand, and yes, as I say, it does work... but boy, does it feel strange.

Starting later in life might feel like more of a challenge, but don't let that be a mental roadblock. Your brain is capable of learning new things, and developing coordinated action with practice - - so practice, practice, PRACTICE! :mst:

This I am doing... diligence is something that's always stood me in good stead. Thanks very much for the encouragement...

Have fun, good luck, see you at the Meet and Greet! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart

Most definitely, LF—am looking forward to it. Again, thanks for your kind words and excellent advice!

:asian: