PB is not my teacher.
WC Punch
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
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PB is not my teacher.
Nope. LT gave us a lot of Kuen Kuit in English translation, and never went into much detail about the source of any of them. Some may have been traditional, some from Yip Man, heck, others he might have made up. I was a disciple then, so whatever he told us was really all we needed to know. It was the truth and everybody else was sadly misinformed and wrong. That's why I understand Guy so well!
So Keith ...what is the second part?
Oh. Who is?
The line LFJ included in his prior post that he translated as "attacking hand is defending hand". Did LT teach that part of the Kuen Kit?
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- #147
Do anybody know any clip to show what LFJ is talking about?
It would be nice to see a clip of a WSL guy doing what LFJ is talking about in a sparring match, wouldn't it? But we have discovered that, even though sparring like this is such an important aspect of WSLVT training and testing, there seems to be surprising lack of any video footage showing it!
This is why this kind of maxim needs to be learned from someone who not only understands the language, but also knows its reference within a VT context.
TCMAs often take common Chinese expressions and adapt them to their fighting philosophies.
When "lin...daai..." is used with nouns, it means both together. Like "lin old daai young" would mean both old and young enjoyed the show, for example. Together at exactly the same time.
When used with verbs, while it doesn't say precisely simultaneous, it means the actions happen in such close succession as to be virtually simultaneous. Hence, people usually just translate it as "simultaneous".
By saying simultaneous, we are referring to it being a single action, just punching. Not block then punch in two beats. So for our intent and purpose, it is simultaneous in that we are doing one action with dual functions. Calling it something other than simultaneous is splitting hairs and missing the point.
When the VT punch is used, it may very well displace the opponents limb at precisely the same time as the punch lands. Much like a rimshot in percussion, where the shaft of the drumstick hits the rim at precisely the same time the bead strikes the drum skin.
It depends entirely on timing and distance.
Of course, in fighting we can't expect things to happen the same way all the time. If timing and distance are a little bit out, it may end up displacing the opponent's arm just a hair before landing the strike. That's actually most likely to happen at speed in the heat of a fight and it's just fine. And it coincides with the literal meaning of the phrase.
No. It means they are so closely linked as to be virtually simultaneous because they are in fact functions of a single action. Not two separate actions of block then punch. You'd have to watch it in 0.25 speed or slower to notice if the functions weren't precisely simultaneous. Really inconsequential if it's off by a nanosecond. It's still one and the same punch. Hence we call it simultaneous attack and defense.
No. We aren't even concerned with striking the opponent's arm. The deflection happens purely as a result of our punching structure and the path it takes to the target.
It is like running through an intersection. If nothing is in the path when we cross, it changes nothing. We go through and strike. If something is in the path, all the same, we go through and strike while automatically displacing the obstruction. We aren't intentionally looking to chase an arm and make contact. If it happens, it happens.
Of course, that is the ideal. If timing is a bit off or the obstruction is too strong, it may interrupt our punch. This is where secondary/auxiliary actions come into play.
Depends entirely on the situation. Fighting is unpredictable and things rarely happen as "planned". That's why it's not very useful to think in terms of scenarios. VT is to think in terms of simple concepts and principles of sustained attack.
Generally, man/wu concepts mean if man is compromised, wu immediately takes over as another punch while man is recycled to the next punching position. Or if just interrupted, it may become an auxiliary action to open the way for the next punch.
A single arm neutralizing while striking is not interrupted since the obstruction is cleared from the path.
Secondary/auxiliary actions are used when the primary action is interrupted, meaning unsuccessful in clearing the obstruction. They are always used with another punch. Hence "auxiliary".
Haha! You are a stubborn little guy, aren't you? You have seen WSLVT sparring videos before and commented favorably on them!
You just don't like our views on the state of Wing Chun in general but can't refute technical points we make on the system. So you ignore everything you've seen and heard to remain antagonistic with us, and instead argue about use of abbreviations, terminology you don't understand, and trivial opinions on VT history. Seems to be out of frustration and jealousy.
Again, it's funny how you keep barking up this tree when you have seen sparring footage from our lineage and liked it, yet no one has ever seen any from yours. You must not consider sparring and testing skills an important aspect of training in your lineage. That's fine. Funny you still go around with your nose in the air pointing fingers like this though. lol
You have seen WSLVT sparring videos before and commented favorably on them!
---Yes. Jai Harmon. But if I recall, Jai Harmon and his instructor, like Dave Petersen, are not on your "approved" list!
You just don't like our views on the state of Wing Chun in general but can't refute technical points we make on the system.
---What forum are you reading? I refute your "technical points" all the time! Including on this thread!
Seems to be out of frustration and jealousy.
---No. Its because I don't buy into your brand of BS that says you are right therefore everyone else must be wrong!
---Yes. Jai Harmon. But if I recall, Jai Harmon and his instructor, like Dave Petersen, are not on your "approved" list!
You just don't like our views on the state of Wing Chun in general but can't refute technical points we make on the system.
---What forum are you reading? I refute your "technical points" all the time! Including on this thread!
Seems to be out of frustration and jealousy.
---No. Its because I don't buy into your brand of BS that says you are right therefore everyone else must be wrong!
By saying simultaneous, we are referring to it being a single action, just punching. Not block then punch in two beats. So for our intent and purpose, it is simultaneous in that we are doing one action with dual functions.
---And again, as I responded to this previously....this is only limited to one arm if you include the 2nd line of your version of the Kuen Kit. If you use only the 1st line of the Kuen Kit, then there is nothing wrong with doing LSDD with two arms acting at the same time. Personally, I did not learn that 2nd line. So in all the Wing Chun I have studied, LSDD is applied with one arm as well as with both arms acting at the same time.
When the VT punch is used, it may very well displace the opponents limb at precisely the same time as the punch lands.
---And how do you do this when the opponent is not punching along the centerline? How does this apply to wide loopy punches, which are the majority of punches you are likely to face in a street confrontation? What you are saying sounds great against another Wing Chun guy. All of the demo footage we see of PB is always against another guy doing Wing Chun. But how does this work against...say....a boxer?
---And again, as I responded to this previously....this is only limited to one arm if you include the 2nd line of your version of the Kuen Kit. If you use only the 1st line of the Kuen Kit, then there is nothing wrong with doing LSDD with two arms acting at the same time. Personally, I did not learn that 2nd line. So in all the Wing Chun I have studied, LSDD is applied with one arm as well as with both arms acting at the same time.
When the VT punch is used, it may very well displace the opponents limb at precisely the same time as the punch lands.
---And how do you do this when the opponent is not punching along the centerline? How does this apply to wide loopy punches, which are the majority of punches you are likely to face in a street confrontation? What you are saying sounds great against another Wing Chun guy. All of the demo footage we see of PB is always against another guy doing Wing Chun. But how does this work against...say....a boxer?
Just to add, a boxers jab also attacks on the centerline. It is a round attack due to its nature of power generation but still it is kept on centerline all the time.
My concern is more that if there is no attack, then it is no block/deflect. So what LFJ often talks about is just controlling centerline but he calls it blocking and deflecting, which is actually something different. However if you assume to block/deflect a punch while simultaneously punch then you either assume the attacking arm is frozen or collapsing by your force during your punch, otherwise that block/deflect will not be continued but rather a one time thing. Secondly I know of no way to punch and block/deflect at same time unless you are very close to your opponent or he attacks you after you punched him. Most often you first block/deflect and then punch, with your single arm. Reason being that his punch is moving towards you and so you will have to control his punch because when your punch lands, you can not make a move to deflect or block his punch with that same arm.
Saying this is near simultaneous is in my view wrong because it is clearly visible the time difference, despite being only part of a second. We are not talking about nano seconds because if we were you would have to be controlling the centerline prohibiting him from attacking along that line, which is not same as block/deflect move.
Could be that the control is what he is referring to, I honestly have no clue.
No. Several of Sean(from KFM)'s guys, Sean's teacher, PB...
You dodge and divert to trivial things like abbreviations and "tone" quite often.
Because you haven't learned VT. You do some other mainland style. LSDD is used by other Southern CMAs, but as I said, VT sets itself apart and defines its unique strategy and tactics by "that 2nd line".
Boxers don't throw linear punches? Sounds like if you've ever sparred a boxer you're walking straight up the middle and into the pocket. Poor strategy. I'm not going to go walking into wide loopy punches. VT has tactics to draw certain types of attacks, or force certain types of responses by closing options. But regardless, this is not the only thing we can do.
Maybe so with your WT. We train different systems.
A nanosecond is part of a second, and I don't need to occupy the center in order to control it like WT.
No. Several of Sean(from KFM)'s guys, Sean's teacher, PB...
---Ah! True! I had forgotten about Sean's guys from France. I'll have to look those up again. He is one of the very few PB guys actually willing to post videos.
You dodge and divert to trivial things like abbreviations and "tone" quite often.
---
Because you haven't learned VT. You do some other mainland style. LSDD is used by other Southern CMAs, but as I said, VT sets itself apart and defines its unique strategy and tactics by "that 2nd line".
---I learned from Joy Chaudhuri & Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming, who learned from Ip Man. Is that "VT"?
Boxers don't throw linear punches?
---I didn't say that. Of course boxers throw linear punches. But boxers also throw a helluva lot more than just linear punches! And I referenced a street encounter, where you will most certainly face more than just linear punches.
VT has tactics to draw certain types of attacks, or force certain types of responses by closing options. But regardless, this is not the only thing we can do.
---You didn't answer my question.
---Ah! True! I had forgotten about Sean's guys from France. I'll have to look those up again. He is one of the very few PB guys actually willing to post videos.
You dodge and divert to trivial things like abbreviations and "tone" quite often.
---
Because you haven't learned VT. You do some other mainland style. LSDD is used by other Southern CMAs, but as I said, VT sets itself apart and defines its unique strategy and tactics by "that 2nd line".
---I learned from Joy Chaudhuri & Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming, who learned from Ip Man. Is that "VT"?
Boxers don't throw linear punches?
---I didn't say that. Of course boxers throw linear punches. But boxers also throw a helluva lot more than just linear punches! And I referenced a street encounter, where you will most certainly face more than just linear punches.
VT has tactics to draw certain types of attacks, or force certain types of responses by closing options. But regardless, this is not the only thing we can do.
---You didn't answer my question.
I'm not sure what Joy teaches. He has a very cryptic posting style. I see quite a few issues with things AF teaches, but no one is open to discussing it.
---"VT" or not? Again, you aren't answering my questions.
You mean how to do something at the wrong time? I don't.
---You chastise John for describing specific scenarios, but then you won't answer a more general question that doesn't describe a scenario. So what do you want? Ok, I'll be specific. How would what you are saying work against a street thug with some boxing background that isn't throwing all linear punches? How does it work against this guy when he fakes a jab and throws a fast shovel-hook to the ribs off-center? How does it work against the guy that times your step in and himself steps off-line with a loopy overhand punch aimed at your temple? How does it work against a "bolo" punch that is coming up at your chin as the guy is leaning away from your own punch?
---"VT" or not? Again, you aren't answering my questions.
You mean how to do something at the wrong time? I don't.
---You chastise John for describing specific scenarios, but then you won't answer a more general question that doesn't describe a scenario.
So what do you want? Ok, I'll be specific. How would what you are saying work against a street thug with some boxing background that isn't throwing all linear punches? How does it work against this guy when he fakes a jab and throws a fast shovel-hook to the ribs off-center? How does it work against the guy that times your step in and himself steps off-line with a loopy overhand punch aimed at your temple? How does it work against a "bolo" punch that is coming up at your chin as the guy is leaning away from your own punch?
