bcbernam777
Brown Belt
the other is based on experiance, superior teaching and an understanding of Yin Yang, beside that what history is he refering too? The historical aspects of wing chun are as debatable as say internal/external
WC and internal roots
- Thread starter barnaby
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the other is based on experiance, superior teaching and an understanding of Yin Yang, beside that what history is he refering too? The historical aspects of wing chun are as debatable as say internal/external
ed-swckf
Black Belt
Is your opinion even open for debate though, it seems very much as though your mind is set and theres no changing it. However, that is your opinion and it is debatable. I don't share Xue Sheng's opinion but i do find it intruiging and interesting and do wish to understand it more before i cast it aside because i already have an opinion that differs from it.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I am not debating the history of Wing Chun. But you would know that if you had actually read my previous posts.
And I am not going to go into my background to continue this because it is pointless and this entire argument grows tiresome if you want to know it look for my second meet & Greet.
What history? Chinese history and the history of Chinese martial arts.
But here if it makes you feel better "POOF" Wing Chun is an internal CMA
See ya
Kensai
Black Belt
Hey hey hey... guys. Come on. Chiiiill....
It might help to define exactly what internal and external CMA are, and then perhaps reach some understanding? Opinions are all great, from both sides of the viewpoint, but perhaps sometimes we can all get a little entrenched in opinions, too attached if you will.
I've followed this thread for some time and avoided getting involved, however, I am interested to know the distinct difference of internal/external etc etc. I have heard of Steve being referred to as both an internal "and" external art, and in other debates purely an external. Now. Before either set of believers jump on me, my view on this is as yet undecided. I'm not sure of the point in labelling anything internal or external, but if that's the object of the thread, then that's fine by me.
It might help to define exactly what internal and external CMA are, and then perhaps reach some understanding? Opinions are all great, from both sides of the viewpoint, but perhaps sometimes we can all get a little entrenched in opinions, too attached if you will.
I've followed this thread for some time and avoided getting involved, however, I am interested to know the distinct difference of internal/external etc etc. I have heard of Steve being referred to as both an internal "and" external art, and in other debates purely an external. Now. Before either set of believers jump on me, my view on this is as yet undecided. I'm not sure of the point in labelling anything internal or external, but if that's the object of the thread, then that's fine by me.
pete
Master Black Belt
here is part of it, mind-intent, as i understand and explained in another post. might be a good starting off point...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617514&postcount=122
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617514&postcount=122
Kensai
Black Belt
Found this on "internal arts". Does this sound like Wing Chun in certain aspects or does it not? I'm sincerely not wanting to have a go at people, simply interested to know.
Internal Martial Arts (Neijia)
This section is an overview of common principles and benefits of Internal Martial Arts.
The only way to understand and appreciate Internal Martial Arts is through (dedicated) practice. As in other martial arts, one learns techniques for fighting and self-defence but in internal martial arts there is one extra requirement that must be learned first - how to acquire Internal Power.
Internal Power and Qi
In Internal Martial Arts, one of the aims of the training is to move in such a way that at any time we can bring the maximum power of the body to bear on any potential opponent. At the same time we have to be able to move easily and respond spontaneously in any direction without becoming tense and rigid. This type of power is called Internal Power and this where Internal Martial Arts got their name. A working definition of Internal Power could be:
connecting the whole body with all movement and power originating from the centre (dantian) - whole-body power
an ability to create a relaxed spring-like power in any direction (peng)
an ability to use contraction into the centre
an ability to use the minimum amount of muscular power whilst maintaining the above three points
and its use as:
a range of specialised skills for handling an opponent (sensing their movement, strength and intention, ability to control them through 'sticking', ...)
a range of strategies/tactics for dealing with an opponent (not opposing strength with strength - i.e. the concept of Yin and Yang, using opponents' own strength against them, etc.)
After an initial period of practice, resulting in becoming more relaxed and centred, students must learn how to use their mind to guide their practice. This can take a number of forms, one of the more 'traditional' ones being use of the concept of Qi.
Using the concept of Qi is not necessary and as it is a concept that has no real parallel in our understanding of how things function, it often leads to confusion. Further, in Chinese culture, the word Qi has been used for a wide range of phenomena and this only adds to the confusion. However, if used properly, it is a highly convenient concept as its methodology had been worked out over a long period of time to guide the practice of Internal Power training. To use an analogy, learning to ride a bicycle can only be accomplished by paying attention to one's balance rather than to the action of muscles. Acquiring balance is not a motor skill that can be learned through practising a set of moves. In balancing, we need to be able (somehow) to guide postural muscles to 'do the right thing' and yet we have no (conscious) control over them. Similarly, to acquire Internal Power we need to be able to 'access and guide' deep structures of muscles over which we have no conscious control, nor even any awareness to speak of. We can use either Qi or adopt the approach of Yiquan where the concept of Qi was abandoned and replaced by use of mental images during practice (which really comes to the same thing). There are advantages and disadvantages to each method. In either case, the mental focus has the effect of promoting relaxation and freeing the body to do what is right without the interference of our conscious mind.
Warmth, tingling and other sensations accompanying practice are regarded as manifestations of Qi. These sensations are not important in themselves, only what they tell us about our state of relaxation/excitation. Different people have different sensations and even in one individual, they keep changing. It would be a mistake to give them any real significance.
Harmonising Body and Mind
Each technique within any of the Internal Martial Arts must be in accordance with the principle known as Six Harmonies. These consist of:
Three External Harmonies
Three Internal Harmonies
Health
The health benefits flow directly from the requirements of Internal Martial Arts practice. To develop Internal Power, it is necessary to have the whole body connected so that it moves as one unit. In order to achieve this, the movements are performed in a slow, relaxed and unhurried manner, and with a great deal of concentration. This is obviously greatly beneficial in reducing the level of stress - and stress is one of the biggest problems of modern life. All movements should be performed with an all-pervading spiral motion which benefits circulation, helps with many joint problems and improves digestion and other functions of internal organs. In recent years there have been many studies done which document the benefits one can gain from practising Taijiquan. Similar things can be said of the other Internal Martial Arts, too.
After a period of regular practice, the effects can be felt in one's enhanced physical, mental and emotional well-being. On the physical level, the body becomes more supple and movements gain poise and become more graceful. On the mental level, one can think more clearly and one's concentration is greatly improved. On the emotional level, one becomes more relaxed, tolerant and generally happier.
When practising these arts for health only, the tendency is to concentrate on the slow, flowing movements. However, without the feedback gained from two-person practice, the benefits are somewhat limited. This does not mean everyone should practise fighting applications, but everyone should try Pushing Hands. All the benefits described above are enhanced in correct Pushing Hands practice. This can be easily easily understood when you consider that to stay relaxed and connected when your partner is trying to push and pull you off balance, takes more skill and mental effort than when practising in a solo manner.
Pushing Hands
is the name used for a range of two-person drills which are designed to improve certain aspects of Internal Power. Their primary use is as a feedback mechanism so that students (and Masters!) can improve the alignment and 'whole body' movement and increase their body awareness. They can also be used to practise various control strategies for dealing with an opponent.
Pushing Hands with no steps are used to develop a root; Pushing Hands with steps are used to develop the ability to step while maintaining balance and ground connection.
Root
- a strong connection (of the dantian) to the ground.
Dantian
- a centre of gravity of one's body (lower abdomen). Depending on context, the area varies from a point to the whole abdomen including pelvis and hips. All movement and strength should originate from here.
Connection
of the body is achieved by slightly stretching all the tissues and extending the joints. This must be done with no unnecessary tension otherwise the result will be a connected but stiff body.
Competitions
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=618645
Internal Martial Arts (Neijia)
This section is an overview of common principles and benefits of Internal Martial Arts.
The only way to understand and appreciate Internal Martial Arts is through (dedicated) practice. As in other martial arts, one learns techniques for fighting and self-defence but in internal martial arts there is one extra requirement that must be learned first - how to acquire Internal Power.
Internal Power and Qi
In Internal Martial Arts, one of the aims of the training is to move in such a way that at any time we can bring the maximum power of the body to bear on any potential opponent. At the same time we have to be able to move easily and respond spontaneously in any direction without becoming tense and rigid. This type of power is called Internal Power and this where Internal Martial Arts got their name. A working definition of Internal Power could be:
connecting the whole body with all movement and power originating from the centre (dantian) - whole-body power
an ability to create a relaxed spring-like power in any direction (peng)
an ability to use contraction into the centre
an ability to use the minimum amount of muscular power whilst maintaining the above three points
and its use as:
a range of specialised skills for handling an opponent (sensing their movement, strength and intention, ability to control them through 'sticking', ...)
a range of strategies/tactics for dealing with an opponent (not opposing strength with strength - i.e. the concept of Yin and Yang, using opponents' own strength against them, etc.)
After an initial period of practice, resulting in becoming more relaxed and centred, students must learn how to use their mind to guide their practice. This can take a number of forms, one of the more 'traditional' ones being use of the concept of Qi.
Using the concept of Qi is not necessary and as it is a concept that has no real parallel in our understanding of how things function, it often leads to confusion. Further, in Chinese culture, the word Qi has been used for a wide range of phenomena and this only adds to the confusion. However, if used properly, it is a highly convenient concept as its methodology had been worked out over a long period of time to guide the practice of Internal Power training. To use an analogy, learning to ride a bicycle can only be accomplished by paying attention to one's balance rather than to the action of muscles. Acquiring balance is not a motor skill that can be learned through practising a set of moves. In balancing, we need to be able (somehow) to guide postural muscles to 'do the right thing' and yet we have no (conscious) control over them. Similarly, to acquire Internal Power we need to be able to 'access and guide' deep structures of muscles over which we have no conscious control, nor even any awareness to speak of. We can use either Qi or adopt the approach of Yiquan where the concept of Qi was abandoned and replaced by use of mental images during practice (which really comes to the same thing). There are advantages and disadvantages to each method. In either case, the mental focus has the effect of promoting relaxation and freeing the body to do what is right without the interference of our conscious mind.
Warmth, tingling and other sensations accompanying practice are regarded as manifestations of Qi. These sensations are not important in themselves, only what they tell us about our state of relaxation/excitation. Different people have different sensations and even in one individual, they keep changing. It would be a mistake to give them any real significance.
Harmonising Body and Mind
Each technique within any of the Internal Martial Arts must be in accordance with the principle known as Six Harmonies. These consist of:
Three External Harmonies
- Shoulders co-ordinate with hips
- Elbows co-ordinate with knees
- Wrists co-ordinate with ankles
Three Internal Harmonies
- The mind/thought leads intention
- Intention leads Qi
- Qi leads strength
Health
The health benefits flow directly from the requirements of Internal Martial Arts practice. To develop Internal Power, it is necessary to have the whole body connected so that it moves as one unit. In order to achieve this, the movements are performed in a slow, relaxed and unhurried manner, and with a great deal of concentration. This is obviously greatly beneficial in reducing the level of stress - and stress is one of the biggest problems of modern life. All movements should be performed with an all-pervading spiral motion which benefits circulation, helps with many joint problems and improves digestion and other functions of internal organs. In recent years there have been many studies done which document the benefits one can gain from practising Taijiquan. Similar things can be said of the other Internal Martial Arts, too.
After a period of regular practice, the effects can be felt in one's enhanced physical, mental and emotional well-being. On the physical level, the body becomes more supple and movements gain poise and become more graceful. On the mental level, one can think more clearly and one's concentration is greatly improved. On the emotional level, one becomes more relaxed, tolerant and generally happier.
When practising these arts for health only, the tendency is to concentrate on the slow, flowing movements. However, without the feedback gained from two-person practice, the benefits are somewhat limited. This does not mean everyone should practise fighting applications, but everyone should try Pushing Hands. All the benefits described above are enhanced in correct Pushing Hands practice. This can be easily easily understood when you consider that to stay relaxed and connected when your partner is trying to push and pull you off balance, takes more skill and mental effort than when practising in a solo manner.
Pushing Hands
Pushing Hands with no steps are used to develop a root; Pushing Hands with steps are used to develop the ability to step while maintaining balance and ground connection.
Root
- a strong connection (of the dantian) to the ground.
Dantian
- a centre of gravity of one's body (lower abdomen). Depending on context, the area varies from a point to the whole abdomen including pelvis and hips. All movement and strength should originate from here.
Connection
of the body is achieved by slightly stretching all the tissues and extending the joints. This must be done with no unnecessary tension otherwise the result will be a connected but stiff body.
Competitions
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=618645
Kensai
Black Belt
With all due respect, I don't believe I said it was the ultimate description of internal arts, more perhaps a general description that I happened to stumble across. Now I'm led to believe that you are the total expert on this matter, please, enlighten us as to EXACTLY what Wing Chun is, and perhaps then, there won't be any "fuzzy differentiation"?
pete
Master Black Belt
sorry, no expertise whatsoever in wing chun, so you'll have to attain your enlightenment elsewhere. i do not pretend to know something i do not, nor will i try to categorize what someone else does.
i do have some knowledge of internal and external arts, and what qualities and training methods make them distinctly different. maybe a discussion of these differences can make it easier for those in the art to determine if it is internal or external.
i thought that was where you were going... and i applaud your effort, just disagree that the article posted would get anybody closer to an answer. seemed to easy to relate to the article from either an internal or external perspective... that's all.
sheesh.
so what are the differences between internal and external? there are several, so let's begin with mind intent. do you train to develop unconscious reactions from neuro-muscular memory or train to fully engage a conscious mind and respond through a see-think-do continuum?
i do have some knowledge of internal and external arts, and what qualities and training methods make them distinctly different. maybe a discussion of these differences can make it easier for those in the art to determine if it is internal or external.
i thought that was where you were going... and i applaud your effort, just disagree that the article posted would get anybody closer to an answer. seemed to easy to relate to the article from either an internal or external perspective... that's all.
sheesh.
so what are the differences between internal and external? there are several, so let's begin with mind intent. do you train to develop unconscious reactions from neuro-muscular memory or train to fully engage a conscious mind and respond through a see-think-do continuum?
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
The following are my thoughts on internal/external training focus on martial skills training. Then followed by an evaluation of Wing chun upon those standards.
"External" focus on training in general deals with training athletisism and conditioning of the cardiovascular and musculoskeletal system for high endurance, high intensity output, specially delivery and resisting powerful blows.
You can easily "see" that you're deliverign a bone crushing blow to the opponent and that you have good athletic ability.
"Internal" focus on training deals in aspects that are not visible to the untrained, including power principles and control of attributes that make it inconspicous that the blow you're delivering has deadly effect.
This focus on "correct" structure, maximizing "minor" movements (small movements that have a multiplying effect on results), control of "energy" and high awareness of anatomy and its martial uses is usually invisible.
By these standards, Wing Chun, depending on your teacher, trains both methods.
Many CMA train using both focii. In Wing Chun, you see some that train very "externally", which tend to "muscle through" their opponents in practice. Others train very "internally" and when countering don't have much behind their blows, or "noodles" in Chi sao.
So a balance must be struck for maximum performance.
Ohh... that pesky Yin/Yang thing again...
If you don't have one, you cannot maximize the other...one end tuns into clubbing like seeing early Bob Sapp fights... the other end is just philosophy without feedback, which looses all martial attributes.
Please feel free to add your thoughts in this.
sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
The following are my thoughts on internal/external training focus on martial skills training. Then followed by an evaluation of Wing chun upon those standards.
"External" focus on training in general deals with training athletisism and conditioning of the cardiovascular and musculoskeletal system for high endurance, high intensity output, specially delivery and resisting powerful blows.
You can easily "see" that you're deliverign a bone crushing blow to the opponent and that you have good athletic ability.
"Internal" focus on training deals in aspects that are not visible to the untrained, including power principles and control of attributes that make it inconspicous that the blow you're delivering has deadly effect.
This focus on "correct" structure, maximizing "minor" movements (small movements that have a multiplying effect on results), control of "energy" and high awareness of anatomy and its martial uses is usually invisible.
By these standards, Wing Chun, depending on your teacher, trains both methods.
Many CMA train using both focii. In Wing Chun, you see some that train very "externally", which tend to "muscle through" their opponents in practice. Others train very "internally" and when countering don't have much behind their blows, or "noodles" in Chi sao.
So a balance must be struck for maximum performance.
Ohh... that pesky Yin/Yang thing again...
If you don't have one, you cannot maximize the other...one end tuns into clubbing like seeing early Bob Sapp fights... the other end is just philosophy without feedback, which looses all martial attributes.
Please feel free to add your thoughts in this.
sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
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