War on Drugs
- Thread starter celtic_crippler
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I think most of us are. Few people want the government telling them what to do.
The problem is that we don't all define 'affecting me' the same way. When society is torn apart by drug abusers, that affects me. You can argue that it doesn't, but I'm entitled to my own opinion on the matter. When families are torn apart by drug abusers, that also affects me. Again, you can claim it doesn't, but we will differ on that.
I am not an island. I am part of society, part of a family, and part of a nation. When actions, choices, and activities affect those things in a detrimental way, they do affect me. And I have both a right and a responsibility to voice my concern, including by my vote.
I am libertarian in many ways, but I cannot be part of the Libertarian party for that reason. Illicit drug use is not an individual choice which has no affect on other people, society, families, or nations.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
OP
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
You've been told "drugs're bad, m'kay" your whole life and like Pavolov's dog, you begin salivating at the mere mention of the topic; going right into "robo-mode" and responsding the way you've been taught to respond since childhood by your beloved "leaders". People like Judge Gray and Dr. Sowell are infinately more intelligent and capable of applying logic than most; therefore, it's hard to put it any more simply than they. Faced with fact and reason, your conditioning automatically turns on and your brain turns off.
There will always be addicts. It is a mental illness and should be addressed as such. When you outlaw something, be it marijuana or 34oz soda, you create more victims than just the addicts. It's that simple. Even though history has proven that prohibition does not work, our inflated ego and tendency to self righteousness compells us to try to legislate human behavior. In the end, harming society more than helping.
Legislating behavior for other's own good never works. Never has. Never will. Never makes anything better. And the government gets support through propaganda and brainwashing... ignoring the underlying issues so that they are never addressed. And when the underlying issue isn't addressed, the problem never goes away. Like Judge Gray pointed out, follow the money. Who benefits? No addicts are being helped because of the drug laws. You people completely miss the point because you're so conditioned to believe "drugs're bad, m'kay." The problem isn't solved, isn't even addressed, and never will be... as long as the "War on Drugs" continues. It's had decade after decade of failure and you still don't get it or simply refuse to challenge your programming.
"Drug raids are good for politics, but do nothing to address the problem." ~Dr. Sowell
Maybe I'll live long enough to see more people reach the top of Maslow's heirarchy... but I doubt it.
There will always be addicts. It is a mental illness and should be addressed as such. When you outlaw something, be it marijuana or 34oz soda, you create more victims than just the addicts. It's that simple. Even though history has proven that prohibition does not work, our inflated ego and tendency to self righteousness compells us to try to legislate human behavior. In the end, harming society more than helping.
Legislating behavior for other's own good never works. Never has. Never will. Never makes anything better. And the government gets support through propaganda and brainwashing... ignoring the underlying issues so that they are never addressed. And when the underlying issue isn't addressed, the problem never goes away. Like Judge Gray pointed out, follow the money. Who benefits? No addicts are being helped because of the drug laws. You people completely miss the point because you're so conditioned to believe "drugs're bad, m'kay." The problem isn't solved, isn't even addressed, and never will be... as long as the "War on Drugs" continues. It's had decade after decade of failure and you still don't get it or simply refuse to challenge your programming.
"Drug raids are good for politics, but do nothing to address the problem." ~Dr. Sowell
Maybe I'll live long enough to see more people reach the top of Maslow's heirarchy... but I doubt it.
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
OK, Joker... since you obviously haven't listened to either Judge Grray or Dr. Sowell, I'll attempt to reiterate the point using simple terms and staying away from compound sentences.
Oh... and now we're talking crack/cocaine? Here's a novel idea... take away gang's cheif source of income. Here's another novel idea... treat "Crack Head Alice" for her underlying mental illness instead of letting her use a revolving door through the prison system and never addressing her addiction? Wait... what?
The vast majority of addicts self medicate due to mental illness... not because they're inheritly evil people. Locking them up (and America has more people in prison per capita than any other country) DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. Get it?
Crack Head Alice gets out of jail and goes back to her dealer. Capiche?
The cycle continues and nobody stops using. Understand?
Drug use continues... addicts continue to use drugs... High level criminals (that rarely get prosecuted) continue to make money... And, here's a mind-blower for ya'... the addicts continue to get drugs in prison! WHAT? Perish the thought!
Tons of YOUR tax dollers continue to be wasted on a failed system that DOES NOT WORK and DOES NOT ADDRESS THE REAL PROBLEM.
If you really want to help addicts and really want to curtail drug use, then you should want to address the cause. Or are you one of those people who think mental illness doesn't exist?
I think that your understanding of the problem is a little flawed. Yes, some drug users have a mental illness but I have never heard the proposition that they are 'self medicating' and in many instances it is the drug use that has caused the mental illness. In many instances the mental illness is paranoia and psychosis caused by your harmless pot. Drug addicts are not evil people, inherent or otherwise. I really enjoyed the time I spent working with them. I was working with the people that most places wouldn't touch and I found them to be no different to the rest of the population. They were honest with me because I was non-judgmental. Would I trust them with my credit card? Not in a million years. Would they tell me when they last used? Sure, no problem.
People don't use because they are addicts. They use because they like the feeling they get when they use, at least for the first five to ten years. I could get anyone off their narcotics in two or three weeks without a problem. I guarantee you that 99% of them would be back using full time in three to six months. That's the attraction of drugs. They make you feel good.
So, we take 'Crack Head Alice' and we get her off her crack. We start treating her mental condition and now she's back in the real world. Let's say we find her a job and perhaps move her away from her circle of crack using friends. Let's say she moves back home to her family and is seeing a counsellor regularly. That's about the best scenario I could imagine. How long do you think it would be until she would be back using? I'd say you'd be lucky to keep her clean for two weeks.
Treating drug addicts is a long process. The objective is not to get them off the drugs, at least not in the short term. Even when you pursuade them to go onto a methadone or bup programme, you know that they will keep using, even if it's only once or twice a week. The objective is to try to keep them alive and free from infection until they are ready to get off the drugs. On average that is between ten and fifteen years. If you legalise those kinds of drugs, most people will never get off them because there would be no incentive for them to stop using.
Locking up drug addicts is a waste of time and money. They weren't locked up for using drugs, or normally not even for possession. They are locked up for committing crimes against society. That could be violent acts committed under the influence of drugs or it could be for committing robberies, violent or otherwise, to get the funds to obtain the drugs.
My answer to the problem would be to supply these people with certain drugs, free of charge. That does a number of things. It frees up some prison cells so there's more room to house the dealers. It takes most of the suppliers off the streets because it is the users who sell to other users. The drugs are of known quality so there is much less chance of OD, the equipment is sterile and the users can be counselled regularly. Many of them could return to the work force, property crimes would diminish, law enforcement costs would diminish and the courts could be used to process the backlog of real criminals.
Do you know why we can't do this? America has forced drug laws on most of the world, including Australia and the UK, which preclude the supply of narcotics to manage the drug problem. Isn't that ironic?
So to get back to your statement, "the cycle continues and nobody stops using". It's not quite true. Give Alice ten to fifteen years and if she's still alive she'll possibly be off the drugs. Make the drugs legal and I'd be pretty sure Alice will still be using in twenty to thirty years.
Legalising drugs is a short term fix that ultimately will not reduce the problem, IMHO. :asian:
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Actually Ive listened to Dr Sowell, Dr Phil Dr Ruth and 100s of other Doctors and Lawyers. Ive been in the Drug Game for most of my adult life. Ive Been a Narcotics Detective and gone undercover buying everything from a $10 crack rock up to multiple kilos of Heroin and hundreds of pounds of Marijuana. I have a working knowledge of the drug game far more then some clinical book smart Doctor. Ive pulled Ounces of Cocaine out of a babys diaper when his dirt ball father shoved it in there thinking we wont find it. Ive stood next to the body of a 17 year old high school student who went into the wrong area to buy a little weed and the dealer decided he wanted his carmore then he wanted to make a few bucks and shot him in the face. So dont tell me I dont knwo what Im talking about Ive been there done that.
Heres a novel idea learn a little about gangs before making silly statments like that. There were Gangs around long before Crack hit the streets and there will be gangs long after. Most local gangs are not like you see on TV they are not highly orginized drug corporations. They also just dont only make money from drugs. Prostitution, Robbery, gun sales, burglaries just to name a few other sources of income.
How many Alices have you talked with? Ive talked to hundreds and guess what ALL of them have been to drug treatment more then once. If the drug being illegal and the threat of jail wont make her stop how is making it legal and no threat of jail all of a sudden going to make her say oh ok Ill quit now its legal so no point in doing it anymore
Sorry thats wrong. A vast majority do it because the rest of the neoghborhood does it and they try it and get hooked. Has nothing to do with mental illness has to do with peer pressure, social pressure, and they keep doing it because they become addicted to it. The addiction then turns into a mental illness because the drugs destroy the brain
I get it but you dont. We have more people in jail thats true but saying they are harmless drug users is wrong. Its pro-pot propaganda. Most people in Prison are not there for drugs or at least no there for there 1st drug offense. It takes alot to actually go to Prision. MOst people in prision have many many prior arrests and may be in jail tody because of a drug charge per-se but thats only because they have 5 prior robberies, or DUIs or thefts.
So when her dealer becomes a licensed Cocaine dealer with the state instead of the illegal deal on the street how is it going to change anything for alice? You talk about treating the problem how is this treating the problem? At least with Crack illegal you can have her court ordered to a treatment program. When its legal you have no way to get people into treatment
So again I ask how is making it legal going to make anyone stop? Understand?
Only difference is now the state is the dealer.
Yep and making it legal wont change that
Wrong again my friend but keep thinking that.
Yep they also get cell phones, cigarettes, weapons as well all of which are legal in the real world so how is making drugs legal going to keep them out of jail?
So hows making it legal adress the problem? It doesnt it just passes the problem to someone else. Its like the little town that says they dont have a gang problem because they ignore the signs. As long as we say there are no gangs then we have no gang problem. If we stop arresting people with drugs then the drug problem goes away.
Again sorry your wrong but thanks for playing.
You want to stop the drug game you need to stop the drugs from getting here. Guess how most of the drugs get here? They drive right over the boarder so lock down the boarder all of the boarder. Oh but but thats racist against brown people. Work with the Mexican militry to fight the cartels but what do we do? Give the cartels guns that are then used against our own boarder patrol officers. You want to stop the drug game make the punishment so bad its not worth getting caught.
You want to stop the drug trade have a zero tollerence in all govt assisted housing and require drug testing to get Govt benefits, Go after the Docs that are running pill mills because believe it or not Prescription drugs are the #1 abused drug in the US today. Get the Doctors to stop giving people a pain killer everytime someone gets a boo-boo. Tell the person sorry suck it up butter cup take an asprin and a nap. Seems like I get offered some pain killer everytime I go to the dentist or Doc office.
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
*ding-a-ling-a-ling*
"You can't teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and besides, it annoys the pig" ~ Robert A. Heinlein
"You can't teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and besides, it annoys the pig" ~ Robert A. Heinlein
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm a fine singer actually but you still didn't answer the question. When the state becomes Alice's dealer how will that get Alice to quit? How will it solve the drug abuse problem in the US. Also what incentive would the govt have to even want people off drugs once they get all that tax money?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
The man who bit off parts of a homeless man's face in Miami had marijuana but no other drugs in his system, the Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's office said.
The May 26 attack, captured on a Miami Herald security camera, had led to speculation the attacker, Rudy Eugene, was under the influence of harder drugs, the Herald reported.
The head of the Miami police union had speculated Eugene, who was fatally shot by a police officer, was under the influence of "bath salts," synthetic stimulants that have been blamed for what appeared to be psychotic episodes elsewhere in the country.
The medical examiner, who enlisted the help of an outside forensic toxicology lab, found no evidence of common ingredients of bath salts.
The Herald said the lab found no evidence of synthetic marijuana or LSD and the medical examiner found Eugene had not taken cocaine, heroin, PCP, oxycodone, amphetamines or any other known street drug other than marijuana, which isn't known to cause violence.
Eugene, 31, had stripped his clothes off along the MacArthur Causeway, then attacked 65-year-old Ronald Poppo.
Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012...s-in-system/UPI-73311340923624/#ixzz1z8K1RsOI
Interesting only Marijuana didnt see that coming
The May 26 attack, captured on a Miami Herald security camera, had led to speculation the attacker, Rudy Eugene, was under the influence of harder drugs, the Herald reported.
The head of the Miami police union had speculated Eugene, who was fatally shot by a police officer, was under the influence of "bath salts," synthetic stimulants that have been blamed for what appeared to be psychotic episodes elsewhere in the country.
The medical examiner, who enlisted the help of an outside forensic toxicology lab, found no evidence of common ingredients of bath salts.
The Herald said the lab found no evidence of synthetic marijuana or LSD and the medical examiner found Eugene had not taken cocaine, heroin, PCP, oxycodone, amphetamines or any other known street drug other than marijuana, which isn't known to cause violence.
Eugene, 31, had stripped his clothes off along the MacArthur Causeway, then attacked 65-year-old Ronald Poppo.
Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012...s-in-system/UPI-73311340923624/#ixzz1z8K1RsOI
Interesting only Marijuana didnt see that coming
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
How's that War on Drugs workin' out fer ya? ...it's contributing to a rising HIV/AIDS pandemic. Feel free to igore yet another piece of evidence... sigh
http://news.yahoo.com/how-the-global-war-on-drugs-drives-hiv-and-aids.html
http://news.yahoo.com/how-the-global-war-on-drugs-drives-hiv-and-aids.html
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Keep grasping at straws last time I walked into a CVS they had bags of clean needles for sale if your too cheap to go buy a new needle and think its a "great" idea to share one then well you get what's coming. How about instead of blaming everyone else for the problem you blame the person shoving a dirty needle in his arm.
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Yeah... I'm just pullling this crap out of my ***. In countries where clean needles are provided because the drugs are regulated this isn't a problem. Now go back to sleep.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I dont care about other countries I care about this country and you can walk into any CVS, Rite Aid, Walmart, or any other pharmacy and buy clean needles. Most larger citys also have free needle programs as well. Instead of blaming the law how about if you dont want AIDs dont shoot up dope.
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Based on your..."logic"... and I use the word loosely... someone with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitis should be denied care and thrown under a bus because they won't stop eating cheeseburgers. It's the same thing. But you're the type of person that would support Mayor Bloomberg's decision to ban soda. I suppose you support making sugar illegal as well?
I wonder what legalized drugs he may have been taking...oh, I meant medications...
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
According the autopsy reports nothing else was in his system. They normally test for most drugs including prescriptions when you do a full autopsy. I think he must have been on something either we dont know about yet so there is no test or someother house hold product thats not normally ingested.
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