Wanna be a Ninja?

[Bruno@MT]

this is part of the gyokko ryu technique? I didn't knot this.
what level traditionaly will you learn the higher kudan teachings?
I have alsv been very interested in gyokko ryu intuition training.

Presumably it will be taught once you reach a sufficiently high level in the art and have a solid understanding of the basics ?

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, DuskB4Dawn, no you didn't cover that aspect. There's a lot I didn't go through, such as the Gassho Kamae, use of walnuts (really!), a range of weaponry aspects (for those from other forums, I am categorically not speaking of either Gyokko Ryu Tojutsu or Gyokko Ryu Bojutsu as was popularised in the early 90's.... ha!), as well as obviously the Kuden for a lot of the system, and deeper aspects of the kata themselves. I could have spent the entire six months just going through the Sanshin Kata and still not covered everything where they are concerned. So don't stress too much about not getting everything, that comes with time, experience, and skill. There's no point giving you things like Hannin without you getting the rest of the Ryu down first.

Supra, yeah, mudra is the term in a number of areas, in these traditions they are often refered to as Kuji-in and Ketsu-in. The concept of encirling energy is pretty much on the money there, it comes down to what each of the fingers themselves represent (the left hand is the "spiritual" world, the right is the "material" world, each finger representing the various elemental concepts that make up both worlds [the Godai concept]). In essence, Hannin is a hand position used in all Gyokko Ryu kamae when required (RVD is demonstrating Hannin Jumonji no Kamae there, Hatsumi does the same on the Gyokko Ryu DVD in the Mutodori Gata, he demonstrates a Hannin Doko no Kamae [a litttle different to Togakure's Doko no Kamae, by the way...] in Essence of Ninjutsu, and there are a few other examples dotted around), and involves concepts of empowering and protecting the practitioner.

In terms of when such things are covered, Hatsumi Sensei has said that there is no point teaching Kuji until someone's Taijutsu has reached a sufficient level, otherwise it's just dangerous. So Bruno is absolutely correct, you get exposed to such things only after you can actually handle the methods of the Ryu itself. So far there has been little more than a taste for you guys....

 

[Indagator]

There is a certain picture of Soke which I have seen in which he has his hands in such a position. I would see if I could find it but I owuld say it'd be largely irrelavant.

Supra Vijai, the Western history of the hand-sign is rather interesting. Although contemporary usage has it as the "sign of the Goat" favoured by metallers the world over the origins (at least as far as my experience has shown) trace back to the Mediterranean area where it was known as the Sign of the Evil Eye used to ward off evil intents or curses. Various areas had slight variations in tradition surrounding it, although the practice was common throughout most of the area - in fact as an Aussie you probably would have noticed many of the little old ladies from that area, Italians, Greeks or Maronites from the Lebanon area for example (whom I have heard have significantly large communities within your country), would use the Sign rather frequently.
It is generally accepted that this sign was picked up in the 70s by Ronnie James Dio, from his Siciliana grandmother, and he began using it during concerts. From there, it simply spread amongst a new group, becoming inculturalised and developing new traditions along the way.

A digression with utterly no purpose, but there you go!

I have often wondered how useful some of RVD's resources would be as supplemental learning for people who do train in conventional circumstances, FWIW.

 

[Chris Parker]

And, of course, for more discussion on this way of holding your hands from a variety of sources, see this thread: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91282

In terms of RVDs reference material, it can be good, but at the same time a lot of it (such as the Dan grade manuals) can be difficult to understand without experience, honestly.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Supra, yeah, mudra is the term in a number of areas, in these traditions they are often refered to as Kuji-in and Ketsu-in. The concept of encirling energy is pretty much on the money there, it comes down to what each of the fingers themselves represent (the left hand is the "spiritual" world, the right is the "material" world, each finger representing the various elemental concepts that make up both worlds [the Godai concept]). In essence, Hannin is a hand position used in all Gyokko Ryu kamae when required (RVD is demonstrating Hannin Jumonji no Kamae there, Hatsumi does the same on the Gyokko Ryu DVD in the Mutodori Gata, he demonstrates a Hannin Doko no Kamae [a litttle different to Togakure's Doko no Kamae, by the way...] in Essence of Ninjutsu, and there are a few other examples dotted around), and involves concepts of empowering and protecting the practitioner.

In terms of when such things are covered, Hatsumi Sensei has said that there is no point teaching Kuji until someone's Taijutsu has reached a sufficient level, otherwise it's just dangerous. So Bruno is absolutely correct, you get exposed to such things only after you can actually handle the methods of the Ryu itself. So far there has been little more than a taste for you guys....

A taste that leaves -me at least - wanting more and more and more I first came across the energy explanation of it a few years back during my last trip to India. For some reason found myself with a lot of free time and not a whole lot to do so ended up taking a short course in Yoga and Meditation and the circling energy was given there. Also about the same time I did a course in Reiki (Only level 1 so far) and they utilised it as a transitionary posture of sorts for the fingers during the warm up exercises the practitioner was mean to do to get the energy flowing. They didn't use the term Mudra though, I'm quite familiar with that one given that it's Sanskrit. Might have been Kuji-in/ketsu-in, can't recall I'm afraid.

Supra Vijai, the Western history of the hand-sign is rather interesting. Although contemporary usage has it as the "sign of the Goat" favoured by metallers the world over the origins (at least as far as my experience has shown) trace back to the Mediterranean area where it was known as the Sign of the Evil Eye used to ward off evil intents or curses.

Yeah aware of the history (although not in great detail) I was over simplifying it just to keep it in line with Ninjutsu and the use by Metalheads. History is full of ancient signs and symbols that have been perverted/corrupted by different forces over time though. A fairly major example in the last century being the Swastika. Originally a symbol of peace and creation over 3000 years old, it was perverted by the Nazi's as they saw it as a symbol of the original Indo Aryans being the ultimate white invaders. But again that's wildly digressing lol

I have often wondered how useful some of RVD's resources would be as supplemental learning for people who do train in conventional circumstances, FWIW.

I have one lot of the DVD media (Basics) and it's not great to learn anything from to be honest. It's great to have a reference to learn the Japanese names of things but there are far too many subtleties to something as basic as a backwards breakfall that just doesn't get covered by watching someone on your TV. Having a living breathing physical instructor watching you and offering on the spot feedback simply can't be beat IMO

 

[Rayban]

The finger thing is called a mudra. While the whole thing may have been a posture from Gyokko Ryu Kuden teachings, the actual just fingers themselves are ancient. In the Western world it's the sign of the goat and normally associated with heavy metal and what not, in Eastern cultures (I can only really talk about Indian here), it's got certain properties as to why you would hold that position. In certain forms of Yoga for example it's believed that you are activating tiny pressure points on the tips of you middle and ring fingers with your thumb which helps with circling energy during meditation. Other benefits too but that's one of the main ones without getting too esoteric.

Supra, yeah, mudra is the term in a number of areas, in these traditions they are often refered to as Kuji-in and Ketsu-in. The concept of encirling energy is pretty much on the money there, it comes down to what each of the fingers themselves represent (the left hand is the "spiritual" world, the right is the "material" world, each finger representing the various elemental concepts that make up both worlds [the Godai concept]). In essence, Hannin is a hand position used in all Gyokko Ryu kamae when required (RVD is demonstrating Hannin Jumonji no Kamae there, Hatsumi does the same on the Gyokko Ryu DVD in the Mutodori Gata, he demonstrates a Hannin Doko no Kamae [a litttle different to Togakure's Doko no Kamae, by the way...] in Essence of Ninjutsu, and there are a few other examples dotted around), and involves concepts of empowering and protecting the practitioner.

Very very interesting. I did know there was a little more to it jumping up and down in a moshpit, but not that much. It's fun to learn and I retract the "dopey".

 

[Supra Vijai]

Eh we're all learning Seriously though we have normal class, then as I called it on here our second class with the history and philosophy and what not then this is like my 3rd class. Amazing just how much is overlooked or hidden in the most basic things till someone with a world of knowledge points it out

 

[Cirdan]

Cirdan, do you mean Raven possibly? He trains NinjItsu. At least in the movie and the later games that is. Yoshimitsu becomes a Samurai warrior who lives by the sword. I'm not a nerd....

They both do Ninjutsu, tho Yoshimitsu does a lot of other strange stuff too. Tekkenpedia calls it "a blend of ninjutsu, sword attacks, and special stances". Not to mention he is the leader if a ninja clan.

Actually if you beat Yoshimitsu with Raven in Tekken 5 arcade, Raven gives him lessons to improve his ninjutsu (those hand forms from Gi Joe comics, also show in Raven`s Tekken 6 ending).

Not nerdy enough to see the movie, but as far as I know it differs a lot with the story in the games.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Ahh my bad, you're right it does still list him as Ninjutsu. Yeah movie is way off but not bad for a no brainer action flick, just leave any knowledge of the games behind when you watch it

 

[Cirdan]

Ahh my bad, you're right it does still list him as Ninjutsu. Yeah movie is way off but not bad for a no brainer action flick, just leave any knowledge of the games behind when you watch it

Ok, perhaps I`ll watch it. And earn a Karate 4th Dan in the process since Jin is the main character. Cheaper than Van Donk`s dvds too.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

Did you do the sensory perception training (where you stand in Mushin with you eyes close and someone attacks you from behind slowly and with intent and you need to sense their intent and move away)? Surely you did it at least once, we trained it for a month! There's your Gyokko intuition... well intuition in general.

yes i have done this a few times in class. im starting to pick this up but i feel i need to train this more to refine my skills because at the moment i cant differentiate between someone starring at me and real killer intent. anyone can tell when someone is starring naturally. thats why the girl walking down the street turns to look at me coz ive been starring at her butt too long lol its natural. but to sense danger would be more usefull. hopefully i can refine my skills in the future. were not doing gyokko ryu anymore so i guess for koto ryu it would hand conditioning??? i doubt that will ever happen =) one can only hope

 

[Supra Vijai]

yes i have done this a few times in class. im starting to pick this up but i feel i need to train this more to refine my skills because at the moment i cant differentiate between someone starring at me and real killer intent. anyone can tell when someone is starring naturally. thats why the girl walking down the street turns to look at me coz ive been starring at her butt too long lol its natural. but to sense danger would be more usefull. hopefully i can refine my skills in the future. were not doing gyokko ryu anymore so i guess for koto ryu it would hand conditioning??? i doubt that will ever happen =) one can only hope

That sentence right there makes you uncle creepy

On another thread here there was some maths presented. Our classes go for an hour and a half right? 3 main sections (traditional, weapons, modern), if you take out bow in and warm ups as well as breaks between each, we end up with 20 minutes per section at best. Something like sensory perception generally will be 10 minutes though max. 10 mins x 4 weeks = 40 minutes. Say we do it 3 times a year then it's 120 minutes or 2 hours a year. No where enough for you to develop it based solely on class. Like everything else we train in class, if you want to get half decent at it, you need to train at home in your own time. Sensory Perception/Saaki/Intuition whatever you call it is the same. You don't need to have attackers coming at you to practice it, awareness is being aware of everything not just someone trying to kill you. Practice being aware of cars on the street, people, trees, pets etc. You want a fun way to practice try this. My girlfriends have loved it. Pay attention to what someone is wearing, take note of the details and store it in memory. Great party trick when a year or 2 after the fact you can turn around and tell someone what they were wearing the first time you ever met.

As for hand conditioning, again something for you to do at home. Speak to Sensei Parker first though and do it as a proper 30 day program. Speaking from experience it's not fun to try it on your own against a bag or makiwara board and taking all the skin off your knuckles. I did that once when I first started and one of the other seniors told me in no uncertain terms to get my hands cleaned up and that I would not be allowed to train in his dojo if I came back in with my hands like they were.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

Okay, DuskB4Dawn, no you didn't cover that aspect. There's a lot I didn't go through, such as the Gassho Kamae, use of walnuts (really!), a range of weaponry aspects

walnuts !? this must be some super deadly ninja weapon or just a joke. I cant see how walnuts could be very dangerous unless you choke on one lol

by the way yoshimitsu is my favourite video game character as you can see from my avatar. he is so bad *** that nothing you say will tarnish his image
yoshimitsu is actually the name of his possessed sword. it is said that the sword craves blood and controls anyone who wields it. and only yoshimitsu can control it. whoever owns the sword is called yoshimitsu and is leader of the manji clan.
yoshimitsu looks like a monster but infact he is very honourable. he detest evil and villians and uses his manji clan to protect the innocent and help the poor. pretty big story huh. well thats only the half of it.
raven is some new character ninja wannabe. if you play as yoshi and defeate raven in the game you can see yoshi mock him as being a fake ninja.

 

[Chris Parker]

Sensory training two to three times a year (a fair amount when we cover Togakure Ryu from July to December), yes the walnuts is serious, the maths there is generous in many counts, home training is key, and handconditioning will be in March (including the opportunity to get some traditional hand-conditioning lotion for those interested, more details in class as time goes on), you all need to work on the initial strikes at the beginning of class before you try that, and I think that's about enough for you to think about for a while!

 

[Supra Vijai]

Short, sweet and very to the point

 

[Bruno@MT]

There is a tendency for people to look at the cool, advanced or special stuff, and want to go there immediately. But even Hatsumi sensei or Tanemura sensei spent a loooong time practicing the basics before they got to train any of that. IIRC Manaka sensei first learned basic punches, kicks and ukemi so that he could act as the class uke for the first couple of years.

 

[Supra Vijai]

There is a tendency for people to look at the cool, advanced or special stuff, and want to go there immediately. But even Hatsumi sensei or Tanemura sensei spent a loooong time practicing the basics before they got to train any of that. IIRC Manaka sensei first learned basic punches, kicks and ukemi so that he could act as the class uke for the first couple of years.

We just got told a story recently about how intense training could be back in the day. How some of the best, most respected martial artists could spend years just getting beaten up to the point of almost broken bones or to unconciousness before being revived and beaten again as a way of testing them before they got any real training. I'm not naming names here because I have no idea how to spell them

 

[Bruno@MT]

Exactly. So while it is normal to be interested in the sensitivity training, saaki, kuji-in, etc, I don't really care about them except perhaps on a theoretical level out of simple curiosity. Personally -I don't want to sound pedantic - I think that if you've only been training for a couple of years, your basic taijutsu should still be the topic to invest your time.

At least with me that still leaves a lot to be desired after only a couple of years, even though I've come a long way since I first tried ichimonji no kamae. And as long that is not of a satisfactory level, the more esoteric stuff is only going to be a distraction from what is really important. Kinda like obsessing which icing to put on a cake, before you even have a cake or even the ingredients. Don't get too hung up on the icing. Running before you can walk will only set you back in the long run.

I'll climb down from my soapbox now

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

yeah im definitely the type to rush to the advanced stuff. thats just because it looks awesome and the basics seem boring. but i am also rather pedantic about learning all the details of the basics. every little bit of the technique and all the veriations.I want to know it all but if i were to learn like this it really would take a long time.
but like alot of peaple said its about training at home to get the most of it. i ltry to practice the sanshin no gata at home. this really is improving my movements and getting that programmed into me. and i used to do hand conditioning daily but my sensei told me to stop and wait till i get shown this properly to avoid injury.

is it so bad to have a taste of the advanced stuff every now and than to keep things interesting. the basic taijutsu is already awesome and the extra is the icing on the cake

by the way sensei parker. during Togakure Ryu are you gonna cover anything on stealth walking?

 

[Chris Parker]

The advanced stuff is really just the basic stuff done very well, so if you are in a hurry to get to the advanced stuff, work on the basic stuff more. It's the only way to get there, anything else is just heading in the wrong direction. It's the difference between the way I take someone's balance, and the way you do. It's the difference between when I hit with my entire body moving behind the strike, and when you hit with your arm. The more you confuse yourself with other ideas, the longer it'll take you to get this method down. Right now, Sanshin is always good for movement, angling, timing, distancing etc, that combined with the kihon striking we're doing at the beginning of the class is your best way to get it down. The basics are the art. Without them, there is nothing, no advanced, nothing. So most of your home training should be on them.

Next, you do have a tendancy to go into fantasy land quite a bit. Try to avoid that (without bringing class material into this), for example you posted yesterday in the "Ninjutsu for Beginners" thread that:

yeah I can see inclass i reach out way to much on my strikes. then sensei parker spotted me and corrected me. it only takes someone to grab your arm when your of balance and reaching forword and pull you forward and your gone. nowdays i try to keep my back straight and everything compact and stable. if i need to get closser i try to use footwork instead of compromising my balance. I really believe in kinetic linking to generate alot of power but info on it is hard to find unless your a boxer. but I find jkd has alot of this so ive been looking at that to improve my striking technique

That message was posted approximately 28 hours after I pulled you off balance and explained that to you, so I'm not sure that "nowadays" is correct. Let's see how you go in just the next lesson keeping in mind what I said first, okay?

Okay, when we cover Togakure Ryu I will be going through the entire system. That includes stealth, disguise, concealment, Taijutsu, Bikenjutsu, and more. Be patient, Koto Ryu is a brilliant system, and far more practical to train in, so enjoy that first. As well as that, both Gyokko and Koto Ryu are required to be trained in first to really get what Togakure Ryu is about, as well as understand the way it moves. They're like the pre-requisites to the system.

That said, this isn't your class space, guys, if you have questions about the class, feel free to email me or call me. You should have those details.