Violence In The FMAs

[MJS]

yes, stating opinion is not the same as passing a judgment of right or wrong, just not for me.

1) Stop grasping at straws.

2) Stop taking this thread off topic.

3) Do you have anything useful to add to this thread? If so, please share it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

[h=3]mar·tial/ˈmärSHəl/[/h]

Adjective:	Of or appropriate to war; warlike: "martial bravery".
Synonyms:	warlike - military - bellicose - soldierly

It's a martial art, it's derived fro combat.

If it wasn't it wouldn't be 'martial'.

It would be Filipino Foo Foo Dancing, after which everyone could enjoy some balut.

Even Tai Chi when done properly is violent...unfortunately in the US it's mostly 'old peoples watered down yoga'.
That's only violent when a hip blows.

 

[elder999]

Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP: Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent? Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?

They certainly have the potential to be-they're killing arts.

The old masters used to have death matches for sport.

Back in 2004, an Atienza kali student in NY, Isaias Umali, was convicted of manslaughter in the stabbing of a bouncer-he was trying to save his friend, who the bouncer was holding up in a chokehold with both feet off the ground. Umali was what I call a "victim of his training"-he exercised what he thought to be the only option in his toolbox. The bouncer was a 6'6", 360 lb. monster, and Umali and his friends were small Asian men.

With that said, no, things shouldn't be toned down-they should be taught with less lethal options, and an awareness of the possible consequences for lethal action in our society.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just saw this and thought it was applicable to the discussion

Actual combat technique—when a serious attack comes—is not theoretical, not “self defense,” but destroy the enemy. - Adam Hsu

 

[Guro Harold]

Actually I was answering a question relating to your point.

1) Stop grasping at straws.

2) Stop taking this thread off topic.

3) Do you have anything useful to add to this thread? If so, please share it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Violence is pretty integral in most Martial Systems. In the FMA's there is an aspect of violence that is inherent as these are personal protection systems that can work in the civilian world as well as the military world. A clip may be showing a movement with a military application or battlefield application or a situation that may require extreme measures even in the civilian world. I would not get to worked up about a clip as generally we do not know the context of what the practitioner was thinking of showing at the time!

 

[Carol]

I really appreciate the fact that the Filipino arts aren't watered down. When I was first exposed to the FMAs, I was in a job where I knew I would be going to the night shift. I don't go looking for trouble, but I certainly wanted a fair shot of making my way home at night without it finding me. The FMA schools seemed to be the ones that took my were the best match for my own needs and concerns.

There are a lot of fantastic martial arts styles out there, and I bet a dedicated student of the arts can do quite well with whatever style they study, but I think the FMAs offered me the best chance to get some worthy tools as I was transitioning in to my new job...then plenty to challenge me after I took the reins and started moving forward. I wasn't a particularly good student, and still haven't settled in to a training routine even though I've now left my night job behind. However, I'm very grateful that the folks I came across took me seriously.

 

[David43515]

I like to think that martial arts is a pretty big tent. And as long as you're not trying to sell your way of doing it as something else that it isn't, then there's room for all of us. If you just want your kids to learn self dicipline and have a sport to compete in, there are schools that focus on that. If you want to preserve an art or a link to a traditional culture, more power to you there are schools that focus on that. And if you are looking for ways to avoid real dangerous violence, well you should be realistic enough to understand that you're going to have to learn a lot about real and dangerous violence. And if that's a concern in your life there are people who focus on that. I think that having all those different types of schools is a big plus. The only thing I don't like is when the last category tries to tell you they can coach your kids to becoming a valedictorian with a room full of trophies, or when the first category swears they can keep my petite wife and daughters from becoming victims of carjackings and rapes.

As I've gotten older my own training priorities have changed a few times, so I can relate to people in most of those categories. But as I get older I find I train for fitness at the gym, I leave competition to the younger crowd, I get my cultural needs met at the library, and I tend to focus all my MA training on dealing with violent people in very violent ways.....because I know I'm getting slower and less flexible each year. So I agree with Xue's comment, keep the violence in the training because people who aren't interested just won't train with that group.I would only add that a big part of any seriously violent training should be teaching about the potential legal troubles that follow.

 

[elder999]

You are correct. My point was simply...what do you do once the weapon is no longer in play? I"ve heard many say that once the threat of the weapon is gone, you need to adjust your response accordinly. ie: guy comes at you with a knife. You disarm him. You are now in possession of the blade. You now turn around and pretend this guy is a steak and slice and dice him. IIRC, there was a thread in the Kenpo section on the blade. I believe Jeff Speakman was in the clip, using the knife. It was said by some, if I'm remembering correctly, that what he did after the knife was disarmed, was wrong. I'll see if I can find that thread.

This is the thread.

I wasn't one of those saying that what he did was wrong, BTW. :lfao:

There are throws in jujutsu and judo that are quite lethal-most people who teach judo today don't know its atemi-waza, and how specific ones at the tsukuri of a throw make the throw lethal-never mind dropping guys on their heads. I know some of that stuff, but I don't teach it to just anybody.Of course, in a blade art, it's hard to "not teach that stuff to just anybody," short of not teaching anything but batons and empty hands until later.....

 

[kailat]

Simply put, are you mature enough to handle the material, your offered? If not, go train in Tae Kwon Do. Kali is a bladed art. Bladed arts teach offensive as well as defensive technique. Be it even more so how to kill your opponent. Ive studied Kali and how to kill w a knife since I was 14. Today Im 40, Ive never cut anyone yet.. probably never will. But the knowledge is there if ever need it. END OF STORY... Can you handle it, or not...Problem w/ many Americans today, they water too much stuff down to make it "safe" or "kid friendly"... if you want kid friendly, stick w/ baseball... THATS ALL

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

My issues are not with what is being taught as much as it's who is being taught. Certain people shouldn't be taught ANY martial arts. What makes it harder for us is that we teach weapons. I don't teach my students much blade work at the lower level of my program until they prove to me that they are responsible members of the community. When we teach someone our craft it's like handing someone a loaded gun. Ask yourself this, is that a person that you would trust with a loaded gun near you or your family?

 

[billc]

As to not teaching bladed aspects of the art to beginning students here are some thoughts. If you look at crime across the country there are people killing other people with knives, and in some cases samurai swords already. In one story a guy was stabbed with a meat thermometer. The people who are going to kill other people with knives are doing it already and they don't seem to need any training to do it. In the area where I train, one young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes. He just stabbed him in the chest. No time spent in training, no special skills. My instructor is also hesitant to teach knife skills to people who first come in to class. I understand this idea, but as I pointed out, the nuts and criminals are already killing people with knives, and the street gangs, who rack up a large body count every year, aren't teaching knife fighting skills to their members. They hand the 14 year old a pistol and tell him who to kill. Sometimes they actually hit the other criminal and not a civillian who happens to be in the area.

People who are going to kill other people are not going to martial arts schools and spending years of time training to advanced levels. There are some exceptions but that is generally not the trend. For some reason, killing someone with a knife seems to be something even an amatuer can do quite easily. My point, I guess would be teach the more violent aspects of the FMA when you are comfortable, but I wouldn't base that decision on the idea that you are giving someone a skill set that makes them more dangerous than they already are just walking into your school.

 

[MJS]

As to not teaching bladed aspects of the art to beginning students here are some thoughts. If you look at crime across the country there are people killing other people with knives, and in some cases samurai swords already. In one story a guy was stabbed with a meat thermometer. The people who are going to kill other people with knives are doing it already and they don't seem to need any training to do it. In the area where I train, one young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes. He just stabbed him in the chest. No time spent in training, no special skills. My instructor is also hesitant to teach knife skills to people who first come in to class. I understand this idea, but as I pointed out, the nuts and criminals are already killing people with knives, and the street gangs, who rack up a large body count every year, aren't teaching knife fighting skills to their members. They hand the 14 year old a pistol and tell him who to kill. Sometimes they actually hit the other criminal and not a civillian who happens to be in the area.

People who are going to kill other people are not going to martial arts schools and spending years of time training to advanced levels. There are some exceptions but that is generally not the trend. For some reason, killing someone with a knife seems to be something even an amatuer can do quite easily. My point, I guess would be teach the more violent aspects of the FMA when you are comfortable, but I wouldn't base that decision on the idea that you are giving someone a skill set that makes them more dangerous than they already are just walking into your school.

True, and if we look at it another way, people have been fighting empty handed for years too, without any formal training. IMO, training just makes us better and more skilled in those areas.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

For clarification, I don't teach offensive use of the blade to the beginners. I teach my EDT (Edged weapons Defensive Tactics) program from day one. Of course they could apply some of the stick techniques to the blade if they wanted. I just feel that some material shouldn't be taught to the masses. Some people will teach anything to anyone for a buck. I have both refused and fired students because they were wing nuts or moral compass wasn't pointing in the right direction.

 

[MJS]

For clarification, I don't teach offensive use of the blade to the beginners. I my EDT (Edged weapons Defensive Tactics) from day one. Of course they could apply some of the stick techniques to the blade if they wanted. I just feel that some material shouldn't be taught to the masses. Some people will teach anything to anyone for a buck. I have both refused and fired students because they were wing nuts or moral compass wasn't pointing in the right direction.

Agreed!

 

[Rich Parsons]

My issues are not with what is being taught as much as it's who is being taught. Certain people shouldn't be taught ANY martial arts. What makes it harder for us is that we teach weapons. I don't teach my students much blade work at the lower level of my program until they prove to me that they are responsible members of the community. When we teach someone our craft it's like handing someone a loaded gun. Ask yourself this, is that a person that you would trust with a loaded gun near you or your family?

I was just asked last night by a 20 year old young man what it would take for him to get private lessons from me.

I explained I do not accept everyone. What little I do know about him would make me cautious.

So I told him to avoid the privates, yet I provided the fees. Then I explained for the cost of one private he could get a month of training at our Class. I asked him to show up and see what happens.

I did this for multiple reasons:
1) Other black belts in my club can read hium and give me their opinion.
2) He can show up and prove to me he is serious in which case optimized / private training could be possible.
3) It offers him a group setting to learn from others, and to see others struggle as well as a beginner so he does not get frustrated.

I have asked people to leave before. Multiple reasons, from personality to just being a pain in the butt for me and everyone else. Most are surprised when the find out I filter people and while they are decidding if they want to stay I am deciding if I will let them stay.

 

[elder999]

I have asked people to leave before. Multiple reasons, from personality to just being a pain in the butt for me and everyone else. Most are surprised when the find out I filter people and while they are decidding if they want to stay I am deciding if I will let them stay.

This is the only reason I use contracts-each one covers a section of rank and material. At the end of each contract, I have the option of not continuing on to the next one, and can ask the student to leave. I've only ahd to ask one guy to leave before his contract was up, and have only had to tell two that I wouldn't teach them anymore.

Had a couple of weirdos over the years that wanted to only learn specific material, or offer up some other reason that I just wouldn't teach them from the start.

 

[kailat]

I have to agree with the fact that people are killing people all over the world with knives and guns, and other weapons and have never trained a day. In fact if they had trained under a legit system under a legit instructor, they would probably be less likely to want to harm someone because they learn to "respect" the art and not disrespect it. I used to think this same way because I didnt want to be responsible for teaching someone the ancient Kali bladed art. And if someone I was teaching had sliced and diced, fillet someone If i would be able to cope with it. I asked my teacher about how he dealt w/ this over the years. He just said to me, you have to trust your instincts in the people you teach, and you have to trust they will not disrespect the art. If they do, its their *** not yours. Since that day, I have worked in law enforcement, both in prison and on the streets. 99.9% of every knife attack is usually from someone who DOES NOT TRAIN in a bladed art.

Basically what I do now a days, is just teach Eskrima (stick -NO BLADE) and as i get comfortable w/ the students I'll start showing them that they've been learning the blade the whole time, they just didnt know it.. CASE CLOSED! haha

 

[Carol]

I have to agree with the fact that people are killing people all over the world with knives and guns, and other weapons and have never trained a day. In fact if they had trained under a legit system under a legit instructor, they would probably be less likely to want to harm someone because they learn to "respect" the art and not disrespect it. I used to think this same way because I didnt want to be responsible for teaching someone the ancient Kali bladed art. And if someone I was teaching had sliced and diced, fillet someone If i would be able to cope with it. I asked my teacher about how he dealt w/ this over the years. He just said to me, you have to trust your instincts in the people you teach, and you have to trust they will not disrespect the art. If they do, its their *** not yours. Since that day, I have worked in law enforcement, both in prison and on the streets. 99.9% of every knife attack is usually from someone who DOES NOT TRAIN in a bladed art.

And for reasons like that, personally I am very grateful that I found instructors that taught me work with edged weapons (trainers) from the very beginning, especially ones that would simulate what I actually carry. There's a difference between a spyderco and a 22" piece of rattan

 

[Blindside]

One of the instructors that I did some private lessons with told me why he feels comfortable teaching people knife work very early in the training regimen. The conversation went something like:

Him: Did you drive here?
Me: Yes.
Him: So the state has authorized you to drive 2000 pounds of metal at 80 miles per hour down public roads, do you really think that me teaching you about a knife is in any way more dangerous than that?
Me: Well, no.
Him: If I was to turn into a mass murderer my weapon of choice would be an old F-150, it would take them a long long time to stop me.