Violence In The FMAs

[MJS]

I'm starting this thread, in response to some statements, comments, etc, that were said in the Modern Arnis section, regarding the title of an upcoming, non IMAF event. Some feel that the title of this upcoming seminar, gives the art of Modern Arnis, a bad name. I, as well as Brian Johns, commented that there are many other FMAs that are equally violent. It was said that it was off topic and un-necessary, I figured I'd start a new thread, to continue the discussion. Notice that I placed it in the FMA General section, so there shouldn't be any confusion. In other words, any FMA can be discussed here.

So, here we go:

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So, whats up with all the aggression? I mean, a knife against an unarmed opponent who's simply punching you. Sounds a bit overkill. I wonder if the folks that're teaching this, are giving any thought to the legal aspect.

Of course, I do have alot of respect for these teachers, but I certainly don't agree with the line of thinking here. Perhaps some of the students of these arts can clarify for us.

 

[MJS]

FWIW, there is some offensive knife work in Modern Arnis, however, from what I hear, the Prof. has only shown certain people and has told them that this is not the path that he wants his art to go, thus alot of the more defensive stuff. However, as I said, anyone with some years of quality time in, can easily see the offensive stuff, yet again, its not billed as offensive knife work.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP: Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent? Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP: Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent? Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?

Yes.
No.
Maybe.

Yes, as it is not kid and family friendly. You do what you train. If you train to cut vital areas, you will cut vital areas and could have legal action of your response is not the proper level of response.

No, as in self defense you want everything on the table.

Maybe, as in all things moderation. Leave the more aggressive and dangerous attacks until later in the list of techinqiues learned. So you know the student and trust them. Also one could temper the instruction to fit their audience.

I taught at a seminar and was asked to teach some stick and knife. There were three people attending below 16. So I asked their parents if they minded what I was going to show. I did it privately, and one on with the parents. The also trained. Some started after their child others before or same time. I told them in my off time I would make sure their child would get something from me if they did not want their child to see or learn the technique. I demostrated it so they would understand. It was using the knife on the half beat for thrusting and insertions. All said yes. But I gave them an option to opt out, and still feel like they got something from me as well as the other instructors.

I like it. It fits me. It does not fit everyone. As with all things, if it is too far outside of your comfort zone we do not do it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unless you are calling it something like the Blood, Guts and Gore, Murder and Mayhem Modern Arnis Seminar or how to kill a guy with Modern Arnis I don't see a problem. Of what I have seen of FMA I can say I like it. I do not think I would enjoy a sayoc class but that does not mean I think they should change it to make me happy. It means I likely will not take a sayoc class. But if I ever were to consider Sayoc I do not think I would go to a school that was labeled to minimize the violence. So a show of hands, how many would go the Happy Fluffy Bunny School of Sayoc

Not a comment about FMA but more to the problem some people have with thinking systems made for self-defense and fighting as being violent.

I was at short qinna seminar years ago given by Yang Jwing Ming and he was demonstrating various qinna locks. Dr. Yang was talking about the history of qinna and had a guy locked and basically on in a wrist lock and on his knees when a woman asked “what would they do you do after they locked him?” Dr. Yang responded “kill him”.

The woman was completely shocked and was very upset and began to argue with Dr. Yang. His response was you have to remember QInna was made for war and if you locked him and then let him go he would then kill you. She was still upset that he had implied that there was such violence in martial arts. Frankly I do not thing Dr. Yang could understand why she was so upset since martial arts can be incredibly violent in application. And if you know anything about qinna which has as part of it tendon breaking and muscle tearing then you know how violent it can be.

Personally I think the denial of or the ignoring of the violent side of Martial Arts that I see all over the place today is as wrong as the glorification of it

 

[Blindside]

There is a section in my curriculum that is called "knife versus unarmed" and it all about clearing away the common defenses against knife. "Oh look, he does an upward block, shift back, drop your weight, destroy the structure of the guard, pull it down, and enter on the centerline." "Oh look, the guy has training and is trying to double tap the knife, good for him, trap over with the left arm, pulling both arms down and enter to the throat."

The intention isn't to make assassins it is to make students aware of all the possible ways the bad guy can break their defensive structure. We are training against the worst case scenario, a skilled knife attack with the caveat the we actually were lucky enough to figure out there was a knife involved in time. You can't defend against that what you don't understand.

In addition, I can think of a number of lethal force situations where weapon use may be appropriate, even against unarmed opponents, size disparity, group attack, etc. We do unarmed versus knife sparring as part of our curriculum as well as multiple unarmed attackers versus a weapon holder, it is a logical extension of the curriculum.

Is it violent? Yes. It is either a martial art or fighting art depending on whom you ask.

 

[billc]

Sooo...you walk into your apartment or house and someone is there and tries to kill you with a knife. You manage to draw your own or you get one from the kitchen. As you struggle, he drops his knife but continues to press the attack. Do you...

a) drop your knife and continue the fight empty handed
b) offer to let him get a knife out of the kitchen while you wait
c) give him your knife so you can try your empty hand technique against a knife wielding attacker
d) surrender because to continue fighting against an unarmed man would be unfair

Hmmm...do any of those options sound likely?

I understand the predicament with an attack with an armed attacker. The question will be between what is legal and what is survival and sometimes the two are not the same. It is up to you, in the middle of that chaos to make that decision. No one else will ever be able to do that for you, good luck.

 

[MJS]

Sooo...you walk into your apartment or house and someone is there and tries to kill you with a knife. You manage to draw your own or you get one from the kitchen. As you struggle, he drops his knife but continues to press the attack. Do you...

a) drop your knife and continue the fight empty handed
b) offer to let him get a knife out of the kitchen while you wait
c) give him your knife so you can try your empty hand technique against a knife wielding attacker
d) surrender because to continue fighting against an unarmed man would be unfair

Hmmm...do any of those options sound likely?

I understand the predicament with an attack with an armed attacker. The question will be between what is legal and what is survival and sometimes the two are not the same. It is up to you, in the middle of that chaos to make that decision. No one else will ever be able to do that for you, good luck.

This thread is a spill over from this one.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102794-WAM-Violent-Tapi-Tapi-What-gives

Since it seems that some felt that the use of "Whoop ***" in the non IMAF seminar was wrong, I started this thread, simply to point out that alot of what we see in other FMAs is just as bad. As for the scenario you list...well, ok, not sure where this came from, but ok. Sure that could be justifiable, however, the use of the blade against an unarmed opponent...well, if you dont see something wrong with that, I dont know what to tell ya. See, thats my point of this thread. In that other thread, someone said the following:

"I personally would be concerned marketing these seminar titles especially in the event that some did Whoop someone's *** and it wasn't in self-defense."

Well, the same could be said of the clips I posted above. Imagine the fun the lawyers would have, were someone to actually slice and dice someone to pieces, and it wasn't justified in a SD situation.

 

[MJS]

Unless you are calling it something like the Blood, Guts and Gore, Murder and Mayhem Modern Arnis Seminar or how to kill a guy with Modern Arnis I don't see a problem. Of what I have seen of FMA I can say I like it. I do not think I would enjoy a sayoc class but that does not mean I think they should change it to make me happy. It means I likely will not take a sayoc class. But if I ever were to consider Sayoc I do not think I would go to a school that was labeled to minimize the violence. So a show of hands, how many would go the Happy Fluffy Bunny School of Sayoc

Not a comment about FMA but more to the problem some people have with thinking systems made for self-defense and fighting as being violent.

I was at short qinna seminar years ago given by Yang Jwing Ming and he was demonstrating various qinna locks. Dr. Yang was talking about the history of qinna and had a guy locked and basically on in a wrist lock and on his knees when a woman asked “what would they do you do after they locked him?” Dr. Yang responded “kill him”.

The woman was completely shocked and was very upset and began to argue with Dr. Yang. His response was you have to remember QInna was made for war and if you locked him and then let him go he would then kill you. She was still upset that he had implied that there was such violence in martial arts. Frankly I do not thing Dr. Yang could understand why she was so upset since martial arts can be incredibly violent in application. And if you know anything about qinna which has as part of it tendon breaking and muscle tearing then you know how violent it can be.

Personally I think the denial of or the ignoring of the violent side of Martial Arts that I see all over the place today is as wrong as the glorification of it

Just to clarify...I've been doing the FMAs for quite a long time. I enjoy them very much. Anytime someone talks about weapon defense, I'm usually the one who mentions that the FMAs are, IMO, head and shoulders above any other art, when it comes to weapon use and defense. I feel that they're a great SD tool, and yes, just like any other art, there is a violent side to them. As I said, in that other thread, some felt that Modern Arnis was suddenly taking a violent turn, due to the title of a seminar. My point was simply to show that there are just as many whoop ***, slice and dice clips out there, so its not just limited to Modern Arnis.

 

[billc]

It just seems that when you, the general you not anyone specific, talk about knife vs. an unarmed attacker that it is automatically positioned as you have a knife, he doesn't and so you draw and proceed to use your knife. That would be shaky ground. There is a realistic chance that you may be confronted with a guy with a knife, or screw driver, who tries to stab you, you scuffle and the knife comes free. You both try to regain the knife and then what? The guy already tried to stab you, and you can't really just stab someone " a little," or to intimidate. If someone is trying to stab you, you are probably on pretty good ground that he is trying to kill you. So, you end up with the knife as you continue to struggle with your potential murderer. Do you throw the knife out of reach? Do you just try to keep him from getting control of it without deploying it against him? As he tries to grab the knife or control it to try to stab you again, then your knife clearing techiques would happen where you keep him from taking the knife away from you. There are situations where you may have a knife against an unarmed attacker that don't necessarily include you drawing on an unarmed guy and killing him because you have the knife and have some training with it.

Also keep in mind that just because he dropped the knife that doesn't mean he isn't still going to stab you if he regains control of it. His original intent was to kill you, wether he pre-meditated the action, or you surprised him in the middle of robbing your house. If he is still fighting, he can still end your life.

I get what you are trying to say out there. It should be noted that iaido, and kenjutsu are arts that involve 3' long fillet knives used on other human beings. They just dress up a little more and make their mayhem a little more formal. The guys in the below videos are also training to inflict grievous wounds on another human being as well.

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達人の技！天真正伝香取




I have a police officer buddy who foot pursued a guy into a house. The guy went to the fireplace and grabbed a poker. My friend drew his pistol and ordered the guy to put the poker down. The guy threw the poker on the ground and charged my friend, empty handed. My friend had just barely time to holster before he engaged the guy empty handed. Things happen.

 

[Guro Harold]

This thread is a spill over from this one.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102794-WAM-Violent-Tapi-Tapi-What-gives

Since it seems that some felt that the use of "Whoop ***" in the non IMAF seminar was wrong

Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".

 

[MJS]

Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".

Really? That should be fairly easy to do. Just look at the OP in that thread. So Sir, do you have anything to say regarding this thread, as this post is off topic. You're more than welcome to post in this thread, but please, stick to the facts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just to clarify...I've been doing the FMAs for quite a long time. I enjoy them very much. Anytime someone talks about weapon defense, I'm usually the one who mentions that the FMAs are, IMO, head and shoulders above any other art, when it comes to weapon use and defense. I feel that they're a great SD tool, and yes, just like any other art, there is a violent side to them. As I said, in that other thread, some felt that Modern Arnis was suddenly taking a violent turn, due to the title of a seminar. My point was simply to show that there are just as many whoop ***, slice and dice clips out there, so its not just limited to Modern Arnis.

When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence

From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.

I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies

 

[MJS]

When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence

To be honest....not that I can recall. Then again, I'm not really in that loop, so....

From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.

I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies

Perhaps there's still a bit of confusion, maybe on my part for not being clear. I apologize in advance if thats the case. If you haven't already, please take a look at that other thread. It was started due to a seminar that someone is giving. The focus, I assume, is Modern Arnis, however, what sparked the big fuss, was the title...Whoop *** Method. It was asked whats up with the aggressive titles. My point was simply that in all arts, there is violence. We dont need it in the title, however, any art has it. It seemed to me that it was being implied that Modern Arnis shouldn't be violent, as thats not what Prof. Presas wanted. My point was simply that there is violence, such as what we see with the clips I posted.

Hopefully that answered your question, but if not, let me know. I'll be happy to answer.

 

[MJS]

It just seems that when you, the general you not anyone specific, talk about knife vs. an unarmed attacker that it is automatically positioned as you have a knife, he doesn't and so you draw and proceed to use your knife. That would be shaky ground. There is a realistic chance that you may be confronted with a guy with a knife, or screw driver, who tries to stab you, you scuffle and the knife comes free. You both try to regain the knife and then what? The guy already tried to stab you, and you can't really just stab someone " a little," or to intimidate. If someone is trying to stab you, you are probably on pretty good ground that he is trying to kill you. So, you end up with the knife as you continue to struggle with your potential murderer. Do you throw the knife out of reach? Do you just try to keep him from getting control of it without deploying it against him? As he tries to grab the knife or control it to try to stab you again, then your knife clearing techiques would happen where you keep him from taking the knife away from you. There are situations where you may have a knife against an unarmed attacker that don't necessarily include you drawing on an unarmed guy and killing him because you have the knife and have some training with it.

Also keep in mind that just because he dropped the knife that doesn't mean he isn't still going to stab you if he regains control of it. His original intent was to kill you, wether he pre-meditated the action, or you surprised him in the middle of robbing your house. If he is still fighting, he can still end your life.

I get what you are trying to say out there. It should be noted that iaido, and kenjutsu are arts that involve 3' long fillet knives used on other human beings. They just dress up a little more and make their mayhem a little more formal. The guys in the below videos are also training to inflict grievous wounds on another human being as well.

​

​

達人の技！天真正伝香取




I have a police officer buddy who foot pursued a guy into a house. The guy went to the fireplace and grabbed a poker. My friend drew his pistol and ordered the guy to put the poker down. The guy threw the poker on the ground and charged my friend, empty handed. My friend had just barely time to holster before he engaged the guy empty handed. Things happen.

You are correct. My point was simply...what do you do once the weapon is no longer in play? I"ve heard many say that once the threat of the weapon is gone, you need to adjust your response accordinly. ie: guy comes at you with a knife. You disarm him. You are now in possession of the blade. You now turn around and pretend this guy is a steak and slice and dice him. IIRC, there was a thread in the Kenpo section on the blade. I believe Jeff Speakman was in the clip, using the knife. It was said by some, if I'm remembering correctly, that what he did after the knife was disarmed, was wrong. I'll see if I can find that thread.

 

[MJS]

When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence

From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.

I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies

Here's the thread I was talking about.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...n-José-negreira/page6&highlight=jeff+speakman

Note the clip I posted about Speakman. Also note the comment Chris makes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To be honest....not that I can recall. Then again, I'm not really in that loop, so....



Perhaps there's still a bit of confusion, maybe on my part for not being clear. I apologize in advance if thats the case. If you haven't already, please take a look at that other thread. It was started due to a seminar that someone is giving. The focus, I assume, is Modern Arnis, however, what sparked the big fuss, was the title...Whoop *** Method. It was asked whats up with the aggressive titles. My point was simply that in all arts, there is violence. We dont need it in the title, however, any art has it. It seemed to me that it was being implied that Modern Arnis shouldn't be violent, as thats not what Prof. Presas wanted. My point was simply that there is violence, such as what we see with the clips I posted.

Hopefully that answered your question, but if not, let me know. I'll be happy to answer.

Did not really have a question but thanks and when I get a chance I will read the other post

 

[MJS]

Did not really have a question but thanks and when I get a chance I will read the other post

Opps....my bad. Meant to quote Billi.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".

From the other topic:

Keep in mind, I have no idea as to what is being taught I and I know and have much respect to the teachers of these seminars but I don't agree with the title of the programs.

 

[Guro Harold]

From the other topic:

yes, stating opinion is not the same as passing a judgment of right or wrong, just not for me.