Video Training

[Enson]

i expressed my opinions on the "distance leaning vs. dojo training" thread

i believe... if you have continues feedback and communication with your school/instructor/s then video learning can be great. i do believe that video testing is a must as well as having an accesible teacher/instructor.

as far as making money...? well how much are they really making? you can get far more from charging a student $50-$150 a month for training in a dojo than the entire video cirriculum (sp) cost. so much more overhead. those that have ever owned a business will know what i'm talking about. so in a sense you could really drag out someone's training and have them at white belt for years just to get their money.

i do believe that for one to get real good training when in distance learning they should most defenitly have a training partner, or multiple training partners.

in our dojo tew sensei does offer the hsp program. but since its his name on the line he takes great care and pride in each one of his students. he thoroughly reviews their test over and over again noting/documenting everything thats right and wrong. then he sends them a report of pass or fail and what they did well/wrong. also tells them how to improve and different ways to achieve their goals.

from what i've seen i think distance learning can be very effective! the hsp students in our dojo are something to be proud of.

it also depends on the level of instruction/instructor. i would rather do a distance course from bruce lee than have one on one with one of his students. this way you don't have to travel across the world to train with the masters... when they come to your house whenever you want. will an owner of a school/dojo wake up after your graveyard shift to go open the dojo for you and give you a private lesson? no, and if you called him he'd probably have you arrested.

i'm all for it, but the integrity/skill/care/help has to be there. if its not then you could get yourself into alot of trouble with habits/hangups/pain. i'm not one for you getting your bb for nothing. i believe that even the distance students should work just as hard for their bb. and in the final test... they should probably test in person. thats just my opinion.

there should be no knocking of the distance martial artist. i commend them for their efforts in not settleing for just anything their town has to offer, or not being satisfied with traveling once a year/month to go get instruction.
peace

 

[marshallbd]

Video training is definitely a viable alternative, but only when certain things are in place:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

Kinda funny that eveything I mentioned needs to be present in a face-to-face training scenario too. Hmm... must mean good instruction is good instruction regardless of the medium.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

I choose yes for all the same reasons...

 

[marshallbd]

I think it could be useful in practicing a form you allready know, but maybe you forgot part of it, then pop in the video.
I don't think its usefull for learning a new system or anything like that.

7sm

I answered yes because I do believe that you can learn a martial art entirely via video if there is a testing/critique process in place. I am using video of Kenneth Funakoshi to relearn/refresh my self the forms through Shodan in Shotokan. It's kinda hard to remember all those forms....at least for me. I am not the most retentive person in the world!

 

[Mark Weiser]

I have done both Video and Live Training. The Videos give you the form of the Art but not the substance neccessary to progress correctly. This requires training with another person preferably with an Instructor.

The Videos can give you the movements and Techs but lack the finese that standing face to face with another person can bring into the Formula. Giving you timing, sense of space, reaction time to beat the kick or punch or grab. Feeling the block in your forearms, the Bruises to let you know hey that worked lol.

 

[Enson]

I have done both Video and Live Training. The Videos give you the form of the Art but not the substance neccessary to progress correctly. This requires training with another person preferably with an Instructor.

The Videos can give you the movements and Techs but lack the finese that standing face to face with another person can bring into the Formula. Giving you timing, sense of space, reaction time to beat the kick or punch or grab. Feeling the block in your forearms, the Bruises to let you know hey that worked lol.

like i mentioned before. you need training partners to achieve this.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't believe in video training except under certain conditions.

1. You videotape yourself to get an idea of what you are doing wrong (NOT to see how fantastic you look!)
2. Videotaping your Instructor at a seminar to have a record of something he did or taught.

Other than that, videotape does not allow feedback or questions. I do not recommend it for color belts, and it certainly is not an excuse to stay away from the dojang and experience the brotherhood of actual practice. You need the group experience. Kind of like actual school vs. home school.

 

[Rob Broad]

I don't believe in video training except under certain conditions.

1. You videotape yourself to get an idea of what you are doing wrong (NOT to see how fantastic you look!)
2. Videotaping your Instructor at a seminar to have a record of something he did or taught.

Other than that, videotape does not allow feedback or questions. I do not recommend it for color belts, and it certainly is not an excuse to stay away from the dojang and experience the brotherhood of actual practice. You need the group experience. Kind of like actual school vs. home school.

What about those who have no other means to train, and do a course that has feedback from an instructor. You seem to want to paint this picture in Black and White while there are many shades of grey in between.

 

[marshallbd]

What about those who have no other means to train, and do a course that has feedback from an instructor. You seem to want to paint this picture in Black and White while there are many shades of grey in between.

Well said, I believe it has it's value. It is better to train via video with feedback, then not to train at all. I would still prefer a live instructor though. I am considering taking a job at Mcmurdo Air Station in the Antarctic for a 7 month time frame and definately would need video training for that!!!! I dont think there are any instructors out there.

Maybe I can learn Polar Bear Combatives!

 

[Rob Broad]

A couple words of advice.

1. Emperor penguins are huge, and can get nasty.
2. Don't eat any yellow snow!

 

[Enson]

Kind of like actual school vs. home school.

what about independent study? thats where the teacher/professor comes to your house. what about online university. they have to log online everday even on weekends to participate in class. your views sound antiquated and very close minded.

 

[Drac]

You just can't beat working out at the dojo.

I'll drink to that...

 

[richiehess]

Video abuse:

1. The wannabe that MAYBE got a yellow belt and spends a lot of time with videos, getting most of his training from that. I actually had a guy apply for a teaching position with my school based on his video knowledge and his sporadic training with some other instructors. He never got any rank, but felt he was pretty good. I am NOT making this up. I politely turned him down.

2. The instructor that offers rank via by-mail video instruction. I have no problem with someone wanting a video tape from an instructor...even one custom designed to cover certain methodologies...but rank?


Advantages:

You go to a seminar and then get the instructor's video to help you recall the techniques he taught, and to get some better insights as to areas you might not have been clear on. At this point it becomes a video notebook. Its even better if you can purchase an actual video of the seminar you attended.

You buy videos of arts similar, or variants, of styles you're studying so as to get a better perspective of what it is you're doing or to augment what you know. Example: The Hapkido guy buys a Kuk Sool Won tape. The Shotokan guy buys a Shorin Ryu tape. The Brazilian jujitsu guy buys a Shooto tape.

You want to see the differences of other arts in contrast to what you're doing, their weaknesses and strong points compared to your system.

Note that I keep saying "what you're doing?" This means it is a supplement to what you've done and are doing on the mat. In other words, you're actively training or have put a lot of time training in the past.

That said, there is no law against novices buying tapes and attempting to learn from them. If they do well as a result of this, great. They would have done much better under a qualified instructor who gave them feedback. The price of a video will buy you a month of training in an inexpensive school or a whole session in a community center or YMCA program.

But still, "wannabes" can buy all the videos they want and train in front of the T.V.

But I am NOT going to hire them.

Regards,

Steve Scott

steve,

you seem to be very narrow minded and have some sort of prejudice against video learning as you say you will never hire anyone who has trained in front of the t.v, even if they have formiddable skills

 

[Aaron Little]

Yes! video training is a reasonable alternative for anyone who doesn't have time or want to go to a studio regularly.

I voted yes but I only agree if they have a partner to work with.

But still, "wannabes" can buy all the videos they want and train in front of the T.V.

But I am NOT going to hire them.

So you are saying that skill is meaningless. It is certificates and lineage that matters most to you. I would much rather train with a coach that has excellent teachable skill than someone that has an impeccable traceable linage.



I do not care where or how they learned to do what ever it is they do. If it will make me better I want to learn it.

 

[Miles]

I voted yes but I only agree if they have a partner to work with.

I think having a partner to work with is good if you are trying to learn something from a video which requires a partner. I don't think you would need a partner to learn a kata/poomsae, especially if you have some background in the same or similar art, that is.

I agree with Steve's points about the uses and advantages-we live in a tech world-I think it is more helpful, as MichiganTKD indicated, to have a video of your own performance and have that critiqued by an instructor. I use videos for reference all the time-for the art I train in especially. I also have videos of arts I don't train in, mostly for informational purposes (i.e. seeing how a different art may handle a given attack, historical references, etc.)

So you are saying that skill is meaningless. It is certificates and lineage that matters most to you. I would much rather train with a coach that has excellent teachable skill than someone that has an impeccable traceable linage.

Mr. Little, I did not see any reference to skill, certificates,or lineage in Steve's post. I too would rather train with a coach/teacher who can teach regardless of "lineage." Would you not agree that as a general statement, it is easier to gain skill through the tutelage of an experienced instructor?

Miles

 

[Aaron Little]

Miles,
My answers/replies to any post will most always be based on my own personal frame of reference. As such, I answered the question from the point of view of one with the same training goals as myself. I do not train nor do I teach forms so I am not in a position to comment of such things. For my own needs I believe there is much to be gained from a training video, if I have a partner with which to practice the material with. It is my belief that those who wish to learn striking skills, wrestling skills, and / or grappling skills will find training videos rather useless with out a partner to practice with, as those skills cannot be developed without a partner.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who owns a training video production company.

Of course training with a skilled coach is obviously better, regardless of how he achieved that skill.

My comments were in reference to:

But still, "wannabes" can buy all the videos they want and train in front of the T.V.

But I am NOT going to hire them.

You are correct that skill, certificates, or lineage was not mentioned but the above quote does imply that one that did not train with an established school has nothing to offer. I must respectfully disagree.

I have personally known several very skilled MMA practitioners that train in their garage with friends. They learn new skill form training videos and the occasional seminar. These are guys that not only fight amateur and professional NHB but train others to do so as well. This is far from what I would call a wannabe.

As I said above, it all depends on ones frame of reference. All I care about is performance.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Only as supplimental.. I already had years of hands on JKD training and real world combat experience before I bought my first training tape.. but they are extremely helpful if they are well done by knowledgeable teachers and you have a solid foundation.. I have quite a growing library in many different arts.. the JKD person studies other arts for techniques to extract, and ways to counter those arts if they are encountered. But if you don't have a solid base and understanding, and actually train in the techniques in some cohesive system, with someone who can work the details/nuances out with you, they are useless.

I have personally known several very skilled MMA practitioners that train in their garage with friends. They learn new skill form training videos and the occasional seminar. These are guys that not only fight amateur and professional NHB but train others to do so as well. This is far from what I would call a wannabe.

Right on bro.. I have done both. I have no "belt" and currently attend no organized instruction, and train mostly with a few individuals at my home and aerobic kickbox at a MMA school, but it would be silly to say I would not be an effective bodyguard for instance.. in fact I have studied bodyguarding theory of the last 1,000 + years, including current legality issues of relative force. Many of the best are unknowns.

 

[Danjo]

Okay, here's something to ponder. Choki Motubu, one of the great kenpo karate fighters of the early 20th century, learned his sparring techniques, or kumite, from spying through a fence at the training of one of the masters and his students. The reason was that Motubu was refused kumite training due to his combative ways. He would go and test his karate in the red light district in street fights etc. Now, this apparently worked for Motubu. Due to his natural talent, and his previous training in kata etc. he was able to translate what he merely observed through a knot Hole, into real fighting skills. Here's another one for you: according to the story given out by the Gracies, Helio was not allowed to participate in Jui Jitsu training due to his fragile health. He was merely allowed to watch the others train. However, when his brother Carlos failed to show up for a private lesson, Helio taught the student himself. He did such a good job, that the student asked to be switched to Helio as his instructor. Take these stories for what they are worth, but these are two examples of people learning martial art skills from merely watching and immitating what they saw.

 

[The Kai]

There are a lot of stories of Choki Motobu that supposedly were spread by people whom thought Motobu was too rough and unpolished to spread karate.

There again is a difference between the desire of someone who looks thru a fence hour after hour, day after day listening comparing and wtching the corrections made too someone sitting in thier basement trying to struggle thru the 5 forms to balck belt
todd

 

[Danjo]

There are a lot of stories of Choki Motobu that supposedly were spread by people whom thought Motobu was too rough and unpolished to spread karate.

There again is a difference between the desire of someone who looks thru a fence hour after hour, day after day listening comparing and watching the corrections made too someone sitting in thier basement trying to struggle thru the 5 forms to balck belt
todd

I agree. Most of my info on Motubu is from the reprint of his book that just came out a year ago or so. It had tons of stuff on him, much of it contradictory. Some claimed that he was illiterate, but there were beautifully written letters by him ...so....take it for what it's worth. Also, the Gracie stories tend to conflict from time to time also.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Videos do have a place for learning. Real live training will always be the best way to learn and get instant feed back and corrections.

Every martial art videos and other teaching videos , I have found I was able to learn one or more new things. In our own system , it is nice to have videos to help you remember a few things in the kata's and self-defense moves that we sometimes forget.

Why is TV so popular and the educationa programs on TV so interesting? Because we learn from them. But cannot replace been there in live person.

Videos for begining learners and the not so often train person may not get the whole idea of what is been taught? , and may want a real coach? This should be for information purpose and not the complete training. But for some this may work for them to learn by videos.

If videos were so effected, there would be for all sports too? In the real world ,live training is best way!!.......Just my thoughts.....Aloha