Vehicles as weapons

[jobo]

I said it "probably acts like a straight line for the distance we'd react in". I never said it was one. With some speed, the curve isn't going to be extreme. If they're going 15 MPH, the curve is probably material. At 40, it likely isn't. To see this, look at a curve you can reasonably take at 40 MPH. Now, look at the degree of "lateral" movement (from the target's position) over a reasonably short distance. It's not huge. It will make a difference, depending which direction they run to, but not a huge one. And at that speed, changing direction suddenly in a van isn't likely to be useful - more likely to lose control than to quickly change directions.

Again, that all presupposes a certain amount of speed. If they are going slower, swerving becomes more of a factor.

but you've just invented an average speed of 40 mph to support an argument. Why do you think maintaining control matters, as long as the vehicle can keep moving, in the end the Westminster,attacker crashed in to a fence and couldn't dive it any more, by that time there were multiple fatalities

if he had crashed sooner there would have been fewer, but he didn't,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but you've just invented an average speed of 40 mph to support an argument. Why do you think maintaining control matters, as long as the vehicle can keep moving, in the end the Westminster,attacker crashed in to a fence and couldn't dive it any more, by that time there were multiple fatalities

if he had crashed sooner there would have been fewer, but he didn't,

I didn't invent that speed to support the argument. I used that speed (as the upper end of a range of 30-40 MPH) when I made my original statement.

As for keeping control, it matters for precisely the reason you state. If they swerve hard enough to tip the van, they don't achieve the purpose of swerving in the first place.

 

[Steve]

If you see the car coming at you, you might be able to move out of the way. But that's not how this goes down.

The decision is whether we are going to put Jersey barriers along every road now to prevent cars from leaving the road.

 

[jobo]

I didn't invent that speed to support the argument. I used that speed (as the upper end of a range of 30-40 MPH) when I made my original statement.

As for keeping control, it matters for precisely the reason you state. If they swerve hard enough to tip the van, they don't achieve the purpose of swerving in the first place.

now you've invented a van,
there is no requirement on them to turn up a a vehicle and drive at a speed to fit your scenario. There is no reason they can't slow down, pick their target and then accelerate it again, or just run everyone over at 10 miles an hour

 

[Gerry Seymour]

now you've invented a van,
there is no requirement on them to turn up a a vehicle and drive at a speed to fit your scenario. There is no reason they can't slow down, pick their target and then accelerate it again, or just run everyone over at 10 miles an hour

Actually, a van is the most common vehicle used in recent attacks. Not invented.\

Agreed, it probably could go down at a lower speed if the crowd is dense enough - I haven't looked to see what estimated speeds were in the recent attacks. Again, I'm simply following up on my earlier post, in which I cited a higher speed than that. I made no statements that an attack would have to be 30-40 MPH; rather, I stated what would likely happen at that speed.

 

[Martial D]

Yup I think rolling and break falls are probably the key martial arts skills that may help in that situation

Agreed! Breakfalls are the most underrated set of all the possible skills you can learn in MA. Not just for fighting, for any situation in life where you find yourself saying 'oh crap' as the earth pummels towards you.

I am confident I would be dead today after a cliff climbing accident I had 20 or so years ago, where I was lucky and aware enough to be abe to 'sort of' roll out of a 15 foot fall. I was bumped, bruised, and my arm wasnt the same for a few weeks, but i lived.

 

[drop bear]

If you see the car coming at you, you might be able to move out of the way. But that's not how this goes down.

The decision is whether we are going to put Jersey barriers along every road now to prevent cars from leaving the road.

You just make tank traps for parades and stuff. On wheels that sink down and lock.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So it sounds like the best way to avoid being hit by a vehicle that's being used as a weapon is to avoid being in areas where there's tight crowds and where there's no room to move and where vehicles can go. This weekend and on Monday I was in Tennessee to see the solar eclipse. Lots of people were there but we were in a big field where a vehicle wouldn't be likely to go and if a vehicle did go there, there would be plenty of room to move. The crowd was big but there was still lots of room to move. Tomorrow I am going to Manhattan, hopefully I won't be in a situation where I can get hit by an attacker using a vehicle to hit people.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So it sounds like the best way to avoid being hit by a vehicle that's being used as a weapon is to avoid being in areas where there's tight crowds and where there's no room to move and where vehicles can go. This weekend and on Monday I was in Tennessee to see the solar eclipse. Lots of people were there but we were in a big field where a vehicle wouldn't be likely to go and if a vehicle did go there, there would be plenty of room to move. The crowd was big but there was still lots of room to move. Tomorrow I am going to Manhattan, hopefully I won't be in a situation where I can get hit by an attacker using a vehicle to hit people.

It would be difficult to avoid being in such a situation in Manhattan, or most any city.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So I was thinking, a weapon of sufficient caliber fired into the engine block of a vehicle, would it stop it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So I was thinking, a weapon of sufficient caliber fired into the engine block of a vehicle, would it stop it?

Sure, if it hits something important enough, while still having enough velocity to damage it sufficiently.

I'll note that technically the caliber isn't the telling point. It's the force it exerts when it hits, combined with the type of bullet. I'd think a LRN would have a tough time penetrating much, unless it's a massive bullet traveling pretty dangled fast. A FMJ has a better chance. A slow bullet probably has less chance of penetration than a slightly lighter one that is traveling much faster. Someone here will have thought that bit of physics through better than I, hopefully.

 

[jobo]

Sure, if it hits something important enough, while still having enough velocity to damage it sufficiently.

I'll note that technically the caliber isn't the telling point. It's the force it exerts when it hits, combined with the type of bullet. I'd think a LRN would have a tough time penetrating much, unless it's a massive bullet traveling pretty dangled fast. A FMJ has a better chance. A slow bullet probably has less chance of penetration than a slightly lighter one that is traveling much faster. Someone here will have thought that bit of physics through better than I, hopefully.

less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.

IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.

if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.

IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.

if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol

Agreed. If shooting at the engine compartment, there are a few places where we might stop it faster. Hit something electrical and kill the circuit might work. With some of the aluminum engine blocks, a .50 cal rifle might be able to punch in and shear off a rod or just deform a cylinder enough to bring things to a clanking halt immediately. Something hitting the fuel line would work in a few seconds. All of that requires a blind shot through the hood or sides of the car, and would be less effective than shooting the driver through the windshield.

 

[drop bear]

less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.

IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.

if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol

As they say if it is not on youtube it didn't happen.

 

[Tez3]

Contrary to what some media are reporting the incident in London yesterday outside the Natural History Museum was a road traffic accident. A private hire car driver lost control and crashed. It is not a terrorist incident. The driver has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving and I imagine is somewhat shocked at the response his crash caused.