Ussd

[Iron Leopard]

two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.

Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself. It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.

If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.

what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.

 

[14 Kempo]

two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.

Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself. It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.

If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.

what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.

I totally agree here. People are, and should be, judged on thier own abilities and capabilities ... within limits. There are schools that have persons that are autistic and/or otherwise mentally or physically handicapped in some way, should they not be allowed to study, train and rank within thier own abilities?

 

[Danjo]

two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.

Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself. It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.

If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.

what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.

I disagree. While it's true that you are only in competition with yourself in terms of training and how long it takes you to achieve a certain level, there still ought to be minimum standards for rank. When someone is given a certain rank from an organization, they are in essence representing that organization. They are saying to the world, "This is what someone looks like at this rank in this organization." Now, grant you, like in any other area, there are going to be varying levels of skill within a certain rank. One can pass a test with a "C-" or with an "A+", but there should still be the concept of someone not measuring up to the minimum standard.

I always understood the idea of competing only with oneself to mean that one was not in a race with others, nor does one have to look exactly like others to succeed. For instance, one person mught be large and powerful and another small and quick and flexible. They are clearly going to look different from each other at a test for the same rank. However, the overall combination of skill in either case should be one of expertise and skill. If one is testing for black belt and is large and strong, they should look like a large and strong expert with highly developed technique. If one is small and quick, then they should look like a small quick expert. But if one looks like a small quick purple belt, then they shouldn't be given a black belt (Or even tested for one) even if they have shown tremendous growth in their own ability level since they started training. Otherwise, ranks mean nothing within an organization.

That's also why cross ranking is a very dubious practice. If someone from one organization gives high rank to someone from a different organization even though the recipient of the rank knows nothing of the art they are being ranked in, then it means that that rank is meaningless. It also begins to reflect badly on the rest of the people in the awarding organization who are highly ranked who actually earned that rank. For instance, if someone from Gojo Ryu awarded an ATF TKD guy high rank in Gogu Ryu even though the TKD guy never trained in Gogu RYU, I imagine that a lot of Legitimate Goju people would get quite angry about it. Why? Because rank is supposed to mean something, at least within an particular organization.

 

[Iron Leopard]

Danjo, I see what you are saying. My main point would be that the c- student and the a+ student would represent a wide span.

The A+ being the instructor grade student the C- being the 55 year old lady with knee problems who can't do pushups or kick above her knees. Her reaction time and combination speed will be very very slow compared to the a+ student.

The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol

He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?

 

[Danjo]

There are schools that have persons that are autistic and/or otherwise mentally or physically handicapped in some way, should they not be allowed to study, train and rank within thier own abilities?

NO.

While they are going to be more limited in terms of the range and variety of techinuqes that they can train in , they should have to achieve the same level of skill as anyone else in those techniques that they CAN perform in order to get rank. If all they can do is block and punch, then they should do it expertly to achieve an expert ranking. Everyone has limitations and one works with those and works around those on one's journey, but one does not throw out standards for those things that they can do well just for the sake of getting rank. All that would do is create a fantasy and a make believe world where we are all pretending that a particular person is an expert when they are not.

Ask yourself this: Is it fair to keep those same people out of medical school and not give them doctorates and allow them to practice medicine? Should we not lower the standards to allow for those less qualified? There's an old saying that goes, "What do you call the person that graduates at the bottom of his medical school?" Answer: "Doctor." Why?Because they GRADUATED. They were able to meet the minimum requirements to achieve this goal. We live in a far too politically correct world these days.

 

[Danjo]

Danjo, I see what you are saying. My main point would be that the c- student and the a+ student would represent a wide span.

The A+ being the instructor grade student the C- being the 55 year old lady with knee problems who can't do pushups or kick above her knees. Her reaction time and combination speed will be very very slow compared to the a+ student.

The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol

He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?

Someone that can defend themselves to a fair degree in a confrontation is a green belt, not a black belt IMO. Rank should not be the goal; expertise should be the goal and rank should be the reflection of having met that goal.

 

[Danjo]

The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol

He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?

No. I would not pass a 40 year old that got winded in 20 minutes, looked like crap, couldn't remember his forms and couldn't take a hard body shot to black belt.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

I got to agree with Dan on this, if you give a black belt to someone that's not at that level you might end up overinflating their ego and they could potential end up in a situation where they could be seriously injured.

 

[Hand Sword]

I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part. In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?

 

[Mariachi Joe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMH0xpjvLg&mode=related&search=

Check this out

 

[John Bishop]

I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part.

Not everyone has the desire to be involved in the MMA world. There are still plenty of physically capable and even gifted athletes that are interested in traditional martial arts.

In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?

The martial arts has always, and will in the future continue to attract the weak who are tired of getting sand kicked in their face.
But getting a black belt is just like anything else in life, the harder it is to get, the more value it will have.
Not everyone who goes to college will get a degree, and not everyone who is involved in sports will ever get to the college, professional, or Olympic level. For the most part, martial arts is a physical activity.
I really dislike seeing the signs on schools saying "we are a black belt school". If anyone can be a black belt, then what is the value of it?
Same thing with children black belts. If a 10 or 12 year old can become a black belt, what is the acheivement when a 25 year old acheives the same rank? Is someone seriously going to work their a-- off for 5 years to get to the same level as some 10 year old? 10 year old's play Little League and Pop Warner, 25 year old's don't.
Anyway, that is just my feeling, which for the most part is shared by my peers in my system. But it's up to the individual instructor or organization as to what standard they set.

 

[14 Kempo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMH0xpjvLg&mode=related&search=

Check this out

Now that's funny ...

 

[almost a ghost]

I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part. In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?

That's a very "1984" attitude towards the martial arts.

 

[Hand Sword]

Not everyone has the desire to be involved in the MMA world. There are still plenty of physically capable and even gifted athletes that are interested in traditional martial arts.

I definitely agree. I was just saying it, for the most part. There seems to be way less of those people in the TMA's now, then there used to be.

The martial arts has always, and will in the future continue to attract the weak who are tired of getting sand kicked in their face.
But getting a black belt is just like anything else in life, the harder it is to get, the more value it will have.
Not everyone who goes to college will get a degree, and not everyone who is involved in sports will ever get to the college, professional, or Olympic level. For the most part, martial arts is a physical activity.
I really dislike seeing the signs on schools saying "we are a black belt school". If anyone can be a black belt, then what is the value of it?
Same thing with children black belts. If a 10 or 12 year old can become a black belt, what is the acheivement when a 25 year old acheives the same rank? Is someone seriously going to work their a-- off for 5 years to get to the same level as some 10 year old? 10 year old's play Little League and Pop Warner, 25 year old's don't.
Anyway, that is just my feeling, which for the most part is shared by my peers in my system. But it's up to the individual instructor or organization as to what standard they set.

Agreed. My point was to the not moving crisply enough for some people here. I was just pointing out, again, for the most part, the athletic alphas of the species are not the most prevalent in the TMA's, and to penalize them for their physical abilities, or lack there of (in their eyes) was wrong. They are spending the time and effort, as we all did.

 

[Hand Sword]

That's a very "1984" attitude towards the martial arts.

Hey, truth is truth, no matter what time we're in. The MA's are more popular than ever, training is way different, and the cast of characters that take them up have changed along with the training overall.

 

[Danjo]

Agreed. My point was to the not moving crisply enough for some people here. I was just pointing out, again, for the most part, the athletic alphas of the species are not the most prevalent in the TMA's, and to penalize them for their physical abilities, or lack there of (in their eyes) was wrong. They are spending the time and effort, as we all did.

It might not be "Crisp" movements for everyone (though they should be as crisp as they can be). Once again, everyone has different strengths as well as weaknesses. The weaknesses need to be compensated for and the strengths enhanced by one's training. But expertise is still required for advancement.

John Bishop (my instructor if you didn't already know) doesn't pretend that we all come out a a cookie cutter even though we are learning the same basic techniques in class (the core system). Some us us are big, others small. Some have long legs and arms, some are short. Some are older than others etc. We all learn the same techniques. We are all expected to gain a certain level of expertise in those techniques. However, the application will vary depending on one's own attributes. He'll tell a shorter person to get in close when fighting, a taller one to stay on the outside, a weaker one to remember to use eye-gouges etc. etc. It's all adjusted to one's own abilities while learning the core techniques and concepts. "Look how much longer his legs are than yours! Don't try to stay on the out side and fight him. Get in close where he can't get to you as easily!" are typical comments.

However, expertise is never sacrificed merely because a person has difficulty in doing it, or, worse yet, because one person has a harder time than someone else. Life is seldom fair. Some people are more intelligent than others, some have more grace and better reflexes. Some are stronger and some men get to keep their hair into old age (sigh) etc. etc. In other words, some will move up more quickly than others will despite the fact that the one may be working just as hard as the other.

No one in the street, or bar or alley is going to take into consideration how long someone has been training or how much they have improved since they began learning the martial arts. You can either do it, or you can't. No service is done to someone by giving them a rank that they do not merit. Like Joe said, it's pretty much the opposite.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree with all of that, as I already have said. My point was to not put the lesser talented people, who are busting their backsides, giving it their all, in that group, and denying them a certain rank. There is always some improvement with time and work, though not as good looking as what some people want or expect. If they know their stuff, they should advance in rank IMO.

 

[Danjo]

I agree with all of that, as I already have said. My point was to not put the lesser talented people, who are busting their backsides, giving it their all, in that group, and denying them a certain rank. There is always some improvement with time and work, though not as good looking as what some people want or expect. If they know their stuff, they should advance in rank IMO.

Well, like I was saying, there are going to be ranges, but there are still minimums in terms of ability levels. It's a cumulative score since everyone has different strengths etc., but the overall needs to hit the minimum in order to advance. The instructor should already be seeing all of this before puting a student up for advancement in the first place. You're telling the world that "This is what a black belt in my school looks like."

 

[Hand Sword]

I definetly agree with that!

 

[14 Kempo]

Well, like I was saying, there are going to be ranges, but there are still minimums in terms of ability levels. It's a cumulative score since everyone has different strengths etc., but the overall needs to hit the minimum in order to advance. The instructor should already be seeing all of this before puting a student up for advancement in the first place. You're telling the world that "This is what a black belt in my school looks like."

I'll agree as well. There should be a minimum and an instructor should know his/her students capability going into a test.