Usefullness of sparring

[jobo]

I was a CPR instructor for quite a few years. Never had to perform it other than on a mannequin. Does that mean I shouldn’t have taught the class?

I had two students successfully use the skills I taught them afterwards.

Edit: I’ve also had people in my class who’ve performed CPR before taking my class - recertifying lifeguards, EMS, etc.

Yes you shouldNt have been able to teach it till you had used it at least once , For real,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes you shouldNt have been able to teach it till you had used it at least once , For real,

So, nobody gets to learn CPR until someone actually uses it in their area, and then only that person can teach it? Any idea how long it would take to get even first-world countries reasonably trained using that approach?

 

[JR 137]

Yes you shouldNt have been able to teach it till you had used it at least once , For real,

I’m pretty sure I taught it right. Seeing as how my students did it correctly when they needed to, people who’ve performed it many times taught me, and people who’ve been in my class who’ve previously performed it correctly verified that I was correct in my teaching.

Yeah, you’re right. I should’ve never been allowed to teach it. What the hell was I thinking.

 

[jobo]

So, nobody gets to learn CPR until someone actually uses it in their area, and then only that person can teach it? Any idea how long it would take to get even first-world countries reasonably trained using that approach?

Quality, quality, quality, there's plenty of people who have used cpr, just Pay them to teach it,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Quality, quality, quality, there's plenty of people who have used cpr, just Pay them to teach it,

Yeah, but they aren't teaching it now. That's kinda the point. I'd love it if CPR could always be taught by EMTs. But they actually already have jobs.

 

[drop bear]

So, nobody gets to learn CPR until someone actually uses it in their area, and then only that person can teach it? Any idea how long it would take to get even first-world countries reasonably trained using that approach?

Did you make up CPR based on your own research?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Did you make up CPR based on your own research?

Somebody did.

 

[drop bear]

Somebody did.

It was not really one guy who watched a bit of youtube.

Google dr fredrich Maass. And you will see the evolution of cpr.(It is a pdf so I have no idea how to link it.

But it was basically generations of people trying slightly less and less ridiculous methods like tying people to horses and blood letting, untill they boiled it down to what we have now.

 

[jobo]

I’m pretty sure I taught it right. Seeing as how my students did it correctly when they needed to, people who’ve performed it many times taught me, and people who’ve been in my class who’ve previously performed it correctly verified that I was correct in my teaching.

Yeah, you’re right. I should’ve never been allowed to teach it. What the hell was I thinking.

Yeah, but they aren't teaching it now. That's kinda the point. I'd love it if CPR could always be taught by EMTs. But they actually already have jobs.

I'm sure some of them are, I can order an experienced professionAL medical traiNET to teach cpr, QUIte easily, I know coz I've ordered dozens of them over the years. nurses , paramedics etc

Having novice trainerS training novice trainer who go on to train more novice trainers is just cost cutting by organisations, Pay the going rate and get someone who knows what they Re doing , because they have medical qualifications and have done it many many times for real

 

[JR 137]

I'm sure some of them are, I can order an experienced professionAL medical traiNET to teach cpr, QUIte easily, I know coz I've ordered dozens of them over the years. nurses , paramedics etc

Having novice trainerS training novice trainer who go on to train more novice trainers is just cost cutting by organisations, Pay the going rate and get someone who knows what they Re doing , because they have medical qualifications and have done it many many times for real

I’ve taken classes taught by people like EMTs, firefighters, etc., and I’ve co-taught with the like. Same for people who’ve never had to use it.

I genuinely saw zero difference in the material. Some of the experienced people where better, some weren’t as good.

To be honest, I didn’t see a difference overall at all. The experienced people might’ve thrown in a story or two, but that didn’t change anything. Except maybe a guy like you taking the training more seriously.

Here’s something I used to say when someone asked if I’ve ever used it...

I’m fortunate enough to have never been in that situation. If I ever am, I’ll do everything I know to the best of my ability.

There was a smartass who said “how do you really know it works then?” My reply - if a person needs this stuff, they’ll be unconscious, just like the mannequin. The only real difference will be the emotional aspect of it. I’ve been in some life and death situations where I was the person in charge until higher trained people took over. I did my job in all of those situations, so I’m confident I’ll do my job in this situation if and when it arises.

Conversation ended there.

 

[jobo]

I’ve taken classes taught by people like EMTs, firefighters, etc., and I’ve co-taught with the like. Same for people who’ve never had to use it.

I genuinely saw zero difference in the material. Some of the experienced people where better, some weren’t as good.

To be honest, I didn’t see a difference overall at all. The experienced people might’ve thrown in a story or two, but that didn’t change anything. Except maybe a guy like you taking the training more seriously.

Here’s something I used to say when someone asked if I’ve ever used it...

I’m fortunate enough to have never been in that situation. If I ever am, I’ll do everything I know to the best of my ability.

There was a smartass who said “how do you really know it works then?” My reply - if a person needs this stuff, they’ll be unconscious, just like the mannequin. The only real difference will be the emotional aspect of it. I’ve been in some life and death situations where I was the person in charge until higher trained people took over. I did my job in all of those situations, so I’m confident I’ll do my job in this situation if and when it arises.

Conversation ended there.

Your turning it into a personal slight, you asked me the question and I have given my views, my views are that people teachingskills on Which lives depend, should be suitably qualified, in this case that would be a medical qualification and suitable experiance, if you did a good job of your training that's down to your personal attribute s and not to the organisation having a good system for training life saving skills your level may very well not be replicated by others

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm sure some of them are, I can order an experienced professionAL medical traiNET to teach cpr, QUIte easily, I know coz I've ordered dozens of them over the years. nurses , paramedics etc

Having novice trainerS training novice trainer who go on to train more novice trainers is just cost cutting by organisations, Pay the going rate and get someone who knows what they Re doing , because they have medical qualifications and have done it many many times for real

The way I do CPR and teach it is the exact same way the paramedics and doctors do it. I started teaching CPR before I had to use it in a real situation, and after I had used it in a real situation, I practiced and taught it the exact same way. Yes doing it on a manikin is different to doing it on a real person, but that comes down to the limits of the training equipment, not the competence of the teacher. CPR is a very very simple process as long as you place your hands correctly, which is why it can be taught to so many people. You don't need a medical degree to do it, or teach it.

Expecting all CPR teachers to have a medical degree is like getting Steven Hawking to explain that 2+2=4....

 

[jobo]

The way I do CPR and teach it is the exact same way the paramedics and doctors do it. I started teaching CPR before I had to use it in a real situation, and after I had used it in a real situation, I practiced and taught it the exact same way. Yes doing it on a manikin is different to doing it on a real person, but that comes down to the limits of the training equipment, not the competence of the teacher. CPR is a very very simple process as long as you place your hands correctly, which is why it can be taught to so many people. You don't need a medical degree to do it, or teach it.

Expecting all CPR teachers to have a medical degree is like getting Steven Hawking to explain that 2+2=4....

Tooth extraction is a very simple process, I'm guessing you want a medical profession so should you ever need to extract a tooth ?

Rewiring a house is a very simple process, you can learn of you tube, most people have the sense to pay a professional to do it.

If the organisation you work for won't get the gardener to fix the circuit board then shouldn't be getting the receptionist to teach cpr

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was not really one guy who watched a bit of youtube.

Google dr fredrich Maass. And you will see the evolution of cpr.(It is a pdf so I have no idea how to link it.

But it was basically generations of people trying slightly less and less ridiculous methods like tying people to horses and blood letting, untill they boiled it down to what we have now.

Yes. What was the point? If there wasn't a viable standard CPR today, there would be people studying what has seemed to work to look for solutions. And they'd probably use any reasonable evidence they could get their hands on, including video.

 

[jobo]

Yes. What was the point? If there wasn't a viable standard CPR today, there would be people studying what has seemed to work to look for solutions. And they'd probably use any reasonable evidence they could get their hands on, including video.

But those people would most probably be people who had ACTUALLY tried other techniques themselves

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm sure some of them are, I can order an experienced professionAL medical traiNET to teach cpr, QUIte easily, I know coz I've ordered dozens of them over the years. nurses , paramedics etc

Having novice trainerS training novice trainer who go on to train more novice trainers is just cost cutting by organisations, Pay the going rate and get someone who knows what they Re doing , because they have medical qualifications and have done it many many times for real

Except that we have evidence it actually produces effective technique. And since that's the point....

I agree it's better when someone who has used it teaches it. They'll be able to share some nuances and warnings those who haven't needed it won't have. Mind you, those nuances are unlikely to be useful to a neophyte trainee, until after they've had to use it a time or two. They simply don't have the experience to leverage them yet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But those people would most probably be people who had ACTUALLY tried other techniques themselves

In that context, probably, because it's a predictable need, and there are plenty of analytical people in the appropriate profession.

That doesn't really translate to things like multiples training (which you and DB are drawing the analogy to). There are only a few (relatively speaking) people out there who've had repeat experiences with multiples who are teaching anything about them to the public. And only a portion (far from all) of those who do so are actually analyzing enough information to come up with valid conclusions about what actually works. Most of them seem to be repeating the process DB pointed out that medicine took in its development. Something seems to work, so they teach that. Problem is, sometimes they're teaching what worked because of the situation, or the people involved, and generalizing it across all situations.

As I said before, if there were enough people with real-world experience who were teaching good multiple strategy, for all students to easily get it from them, I wouldn't spend any time teaching it. I've not found that to be the case, so I teach what I can.

 

[jobo]

Except that we have evidence it actually produces effective technique. And since that's the point....

I agree it's better when someone who has used it teaches it. They'll be able to share some nuances and warnings those who haven't needed it won't have. Mind you, those nuances are unlikely to be useful to a neophyte trainee, until after they've had to use it a time or two. They simply don't have the experience to leverage them yet.

Well no we dont, we have evidence that a very small number of people have used the skills success fully, we have no idea how many people died needlessly because the training was sub par ?

Your a management consutant, would you really recommend , that life crucial skills are taught by unqualified people.

I've had this argument all my working life, if you want a scaffold traNing course pay a scaffold with training qualifications to give it, don't send Jenny from accounts on a two day scaffold course and expect her to do it. And yes this very arguments For cpr,and defibs

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Tooth extraction is a very simple process, I'm guessing you want a medical profession so should you ever need to extract a tooth ?

Rewiring a house is a very simple process, you can learn of you tube, most people have the sense to pay a professional to do it.

If the organisation you work for won't get the gardener to fix the circuit board then shouldn't be getting the receptionist to teach cpr

We're talking about life or death situations here, when seconds could make the difference, and I don't know about you but I believe the more people who know CPR, the better, even if they haven't been taught by a medical professional. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if we lived in a world where a paramedic or doctor could be at the scene within seconds of someone going into cardiac arrest, but that is never going to happen. That's why we have first responders and other lay persons trained in CPR. As Seymour said before, there are simply not enough people with medical degrees and real world experience to train all the people who could go on to save lives. That's why simple procedures like modern CPR and devices like AEDs were invented to allow people with no experience to help.

EDIT: Just reading the latest comments and I'd like to point out that if a person requires CPR (i.e. they are not breathing and have no heartbeat), they are already dead. When you do CPR you are effectively trying to bring them back to life, so of course it isn't going to work all the time and just because the CPR failed doesn't mean the training was sub par or the method was ineffective.

 

[jobo]

We're talking about life or death situations here, when seconds could make the difference, and I don't know about you but I believe the more people who know CPR, the better, even if they haven't been taught by a medical professional. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if we lived in a world where a paramedic or doctor could be at the scene within seconds of someone going into cardiac arrest, but that is never going to happen. That's why we have first responders and other lay persons trained in CPR. As Seymour said before, there are simply not enough people with medical degrees and real world experience to train all the people who could go on to save lives. That's why simple procedures like modern CPR and devices like AEDs were invented to allow people with no experience to help.

EDIT: Just reading the latest comments and I'd like to point out that if a person requires CPR (i.e. they are not breathing and have no heartbeat), they are already dead. When you do CPR you are effectively trying to bring them back to life, so of course it isn't going to work all the time and just because the CPR failed doesn't mean the training was sub par or the method was ineffective.

Yes, I can't argue with that, my point is not that only medical people should be trained in cpr, it's that only medical people should be training people in cpr, bad training isn't worse than no training, it's just the same, people die.

If an organisations needs to train it's staff in cpr, then they should invest the money and pay someone qualified to teach it, not do it as cheaply as possible