Usefullness of sparring

[Headhunter]

So it's no use at all for dealing with punch attacks, which unless you have super spider senses require eye sight?

My god do you have to try and argue with every little thing it's very tedious you know....for punch attacks guess what... we do a different drill

 

[jobo]

My god do you have to try and argue with every little thing it's very tedious you know....for punch attacks guess what... we do a different drill

So aPart from not having your eyes closed what differenCe, your putting this blindness bluff game forward as a serious training aid, I'm debating it's usefulness,

 

[Headhunter]

So aPart from not having your eyes closed what differenCe, your putting this blindness bluff game forward as a serious training aid, I'm debating it's usefulness,

Sigh.....eyes are closed so you don't see an attack coming so when the attack comes on you react instantly but you don't know when the attack will come which is what will happen in a real situation which I already explained in the first post. Don't know why I bother explaining you'll just say it's stupid and a waste of time and ineffective like you do with everything else so whatever

 

[jobo]

Sigh.....eyes are closed so you don't see an attack coming so when the attack comes on you react instantly but you don't know when the attack will come which is what will happen in a real situation which I already explained in the first post. Don't know why I bother explaining you'll just say it's stupid and a waste of time and ineffective like you do with everything else so whatever

Well it has some merit if it's an attack from behind, but then it doesn't matter if your eyes are closed or not, I'm wondering what common situation would result in someone coming at you from the front and you not seeing them, a very dark alley I su p osr, but then they can't see you, perhaps if your wearing very dark Sun glasses inside a dark club, it could come in handy

 

[marques]

I'm not a big fan of scenarios, that always lack authenticity, as they are closer to flow drIlls than combat, as the scenario defines the mode of attack.

If I have an opponent on the floor to be kicked, never mind if I have tWo mates with me, then they are not getting up, it's as simple as that, if they do then it's because I was a compliment attacker so that's just a flow drill, practising not going on the floor, particularly if your out numbered would be a useful thing to do, practising getting up very quickly before they get in position is also useful, but lying on you back whilst the people pretend to kick you very hard in the kidneys is just silly, if you get up its because they aren't kicking you in the kidneys

Everything as flaws. But I have no doubt scenarions are far less predictable than sparring.

Once, we runned a scenario for each participant. The "victim" didn't know much about their future... I was not even attacked, so it was unpredictable enough. It was an intense emotional experience for everyone. One of us, even knowing it was a scenario, was shaking due to adrenaline long time after his scenario. It was also an evaluation of decision making under stress.

What you say at the end is a good point and these things can be analysed and discussed after the scenario. Somehow minimising this flaw.

Well planned scenarios are labourious and a bit risky. This is the dowside, imo. But for self-defence training, it is an excelent complement that should be done at least some time(s).

 

[drop bear]

Well it has some merit if it's an attack from behind, but then it doesn't matter if your eyes are closed or not, I'm wondering what common situation would result in someone coming at you from the front and you not seeing them, a very dark alley I su p osr, but then they can't see you, perhaps if your wearing very dark Sun glasses inside a dark club, it could come in handy

The idea is that you develop timing without using sight. So that you can take advantage of non visual cues.

Eg. If Iam getting pummeled and you are shelled up I can can feel for a rhythm of attack and break the momentum. Rather than having to pop my head up and heve a look.

If I am clinched up my head is generally buried in to their face somewhere. Which restricts vision somewhat. And will need to rely on clues from touch rather than sight.

 

[JR 137]

If they punch you very hard on the nose whilst your eyes are closed, what do you learn from that, apart from don't stand there with your eyes closed!

Some people actually need to learn that lesson, unfortunately. Watch newbies spar; when you put some pressure on them, they back up, flail, go into the fetal position and close their eyes.

Natural response for some people who’ve never been physically pressured. Not everyone, but I’ve seen quite a few.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a big fan of scenarios, that always lack authenticity, as they are closer to flow drIlls than combat, as the scenario defines the mode of attack.

If I have an opponent on the floor to be kicked, never mind if I have tWo mates with me, then they are not getting up, it's as simple as that, if they do then it's because I was a compliment attacker so that's just a flow drill, practising not going on the floor, particularly if your out numbered would be a useful thing to do, practising getting up very quickly before they get in position is also useful, but lying on you back whilst the people pretend to kick you very hard in the kidneys is just silly, if you get up its because they aren't kicking you in the kidneys

Scenarios are like other drills. When you learn a single-leg, your instructor assigns the set-up (what the other guy is doing that positions him for the single-leg). Scenarios just take that a step further, and give a set-up without an assigned finish.

And I'll just ignore the strawman (sort of).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it has some merit if it's an attack from behind, but then it doesn't matter if your eyes are closed or not, I'm wondering what common situation would result in someone coming at you from the front and you not seeing them, a very dark alley I su p osr, but then they can't see you, perhaps if your wearing very dark Sun glasses inside a dark club, it could come in handy

It also helps develop responses that might be useful if you just don't notice (as opposed to don't see) the attack. If someone walks up in a bar and grabs, that might not look like an attack until quite late. Part of the point of blind responses is to learn to feel the attack and give a useful initial response (something that counters the attack before it finishes your structure off).

 

[JowGaWolf]

It also helps develop responses that might be useful if you just don't notice (as opposed to don't see) the attack. If someone walks up in a bar and grabs, that might not look like an attack until quite late. Part of the point of blind responses is to learn to feel the attack and give a useful initial response (something that counters the attack before it finishes your structure off).

This is a high level ability that comes with a lot of sparring to help create the feel of something familiar. Attacks from the front are often seen but not processed as an attacked and are almost never expected by those who aren't familiar with "the feel" of a situation.

Happens all the time. The failure to process what's going on and to make an accurate analysis of one's current safety status. Straight from the front. What our eyes see and what we process are 2 different things. Hence, my statement about sensing being a high level ability.

 

[drop bear]

Scenarios are like other drills. When you learn a single-leg, your instructor assigns the set-up (what the other guy is doing that positions him for the single-leg). Scenarios just take that a step further, and give a set-up without an assigned finish.

And I'll just ignore the strawman (sort of).

If scenarios are done in that manner. For us wrestling is scenario training.

But the straw man is kind of relevant because it is what poses this moral dilemma for instructors.

So if little johnny is put on his back and tasked with getting up. And nobody actually let's him up.

Then you either have to reevaluate your life or change the scenario so that little Johnny gets up.

And then this is when we see scenario training take a bit of a turn towards fantasy.

If your training hinges on say multiple attackers and you can't deal with multiple attackers. Do you start the rationalisation game?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If scenarios are done in that manner. For us wrestling is scenario training.

But the straw man is kind of relevant because it is what poses this moral dilemma for instructors.

So if little johnny is put on his back and tasked with getting up. And nobody actually let's him up.

Then you either have to reevaluate your life or change the scenario so that little Johnny gets up.

And then this is when we see scenario training take a bit of a turn towards fantasy.

If your training hinges on say multiple attackers and you can't deal with multiple attackers. Do you start the rationalisation game?

There is an issue with scenario training - the same issue as with most drills. The problem is when participants think it’s like full sparring (both sides doing their best to come out in top). That leads to a false sense of ability.

Mostly, I think that false sense is banished by having some decent resistive components in the training. Without them, we can easily develop this odd and illogical notion that we can pretty much always defend against that guy who also can pretty much always defend against us. Failing against each other proves the falsehood.

 

[Buka]

This is a high level ability that comes with a lot of sparring to help create the feel of something familiar. Attacks from the front are often seen but not processed as an attacked and are almost never expected by those who aren't familiar with "the feel" of a situation.

Happens all the time. The failure to process what's going on and to make an accurate analysis of one's current safety status. Straight from the front. What our eyes see and what we process are 2 different things. Hence, my statement about sensing being a high level ability.

No need for any of that here.

 

[JR 137]

There is an issue with scenario training - the same issue as with most drills. The problem is when participants think it’s like full sparring (both sides doing their best to come out in top). That leads to a false sense of ability.

Mostly, I think that false sense is banished by having some decent resistive components in the training. Without them, we can easily develop this odd and illogical notion that we can pretty much always defend against that guy who also can pretty much always defend against us. Failing against each other proves the falsehood.

IMO a problem that scenario training tends to fall into is that both parties know at least how and when it’s going to start. It’s easy to counter something you know is coming. And it’s easy to ease up when you know the counter is going to be more painful if you resist harder.

Example - teacher tells attacker to bear hug from behind. Defender drops his weight and shifts, while striking the attacker in the nuts. Attacker doesn’t hold on for dear life and continue to take more shots; attacker thinks “yeah, that’s good enough.” A real life attacker might drive the defender into a wall, slam him down, hold him for his buddies to tee off on him, etc.

Very simplistic scenario, but I think you get where I’m coming from.

Or my idea of scenario training is different than yours.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO a problem that scenario training tends to fall into is that both parties know at least how and when it’s going to start. It’s easy to counter something you know is coming. And it’s easy to ease up when you know the counter is going to be more painful if you resist harder.

Example - teacher tells attacker to bear hug from behind. Defender drops his weight and shifts, while striking the attacker in the nuts. Attacker doesn’t hold on for dear life and continue to take more shots; attacker thinks “yeah, that’s good enough.” A real life attacker might drive the defender into a wall, slam him down, hold him for his buddies to tee off on him, etc.

Very simplistic scenario, but I think you get where I’m coming from.

Or my idea of scenario training is different than yours.

That is one level of scenario training. That’s analogous to a basic drill for learning single-leg: clean feed and no folllow-up resistance. Moving beyond that, there are two ways Togo next. One is to stop telling the defender what’s coming, which lets them focus on stymying the initial attack and getting some control. The other is to allow some follow-up resistance, which has to be limited, because it often turns into a “hurticane”.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No need for any of that here.

I didn't have any sound so I don't know what was actually said in the video. So I apologize for any of the audio content and not listening to it first.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO a problem that scenario training tends to fall into is that both parties know at least how and when it’s going to start. It’s easy to counter something you know is coming. And it’s easy to ease up when you know the counter is going to be more painful if you resist harder.

Scenario training still valuable. This situation unfolds like many multi-attacker scenarios I've seen. Scenarios help bring a level of familiarity of an event so that you aren't going in completely clueless. It should be as real as possible without putting the participants in grave danger. You don't want scenario training to traumatize the participants. If it's too aggressive then people start to dread the training

 

[drop bear]

IMO a problem that scenario training tends to fall into is that both parties know at least how and when it’s going to start. It’s easy to counter something you know is coming. And it’s easy to ease up when you know the counter is going to be more painful if you resist harder.

Example - teacher tells attacker to bear hug from behind. Defender drops his weight and shifts, while striking the attacker in the nuts. Attacker doesn’t hold on for dear life and continue to take more shots; attacker thinks “yeah, that’s good enough.” A real life attacker might drive the defender into a wall, slam him down, hold him for his buddies to tee off on him, etc.

Very simplistic scenario, but I think you get where I’m coming from.

Or my idea of scenario training is different than yours.

Different.


You change the start point or change the victory conditions. And that is about it.

Then say go. And see what happens.

So rear bear hug is done when one guy is on the deck. Or one guy is free. And If you hit me in the nuts. I will suplex you.

 

[_Simon_]

So rear bear hug is done when one guy is on the deck. Or one guy is free. And If you hit me in the nuts. I will suplex you.

Hahaha ah that brings me back... i was always Ryu or Ken fan ;D

 

[JR 137]

Scenario training still valuable. This situation unfolds like many multi-attacker scenarios I've seen. Scenarios help bring a level of familiarity of an event so that you aren't going in completely clueless. It should be as real as possible without putting the participants in grave danger. You don't want scenario training to traumatize the participants. If it's too aggressive then people start to dread the training

I agree it’s still valuable. Just pointing out it’s limitations. Every training method has got its limitations. Maybe if the teacher sent someone to attack a student at a random time and place without the student knowing the teacher was sending someone. I think that would probably be assault rather than consentual training though.