USAT Referees

[wade]

There are so many masters, instructors, coaches and players on this forum that are constantly complaining about the unfairness of the competition, the ineptness of the judges, the complete and total unfairness of how the various USAT competition teams are chosen so I have a couple of basic questions. Please bear with me, this might take a minute or two.

How many of you are national level, A-3 or above referees? If you are, when was the last time you refereed at that level? Are you current on the rules of competition? If you are not an A level referee or a Level One coach then probably not. Don't complain to me, get caught up, geeze.

How many of you are Level One coaches? AC is like the white belt of coaches, you are doing the bare minimum to get by, think about it. You expect your player to learn and grow, shouldn't you?

How many of you players have won a national championship in the 14-32 Black Belt division and gone to one of the training camps put on by the USAT in the last year, IE, since Detroit? If you went to an AAU tournament, sorry, doesn't count. Apples and oranges folks. We are not talking about them. Let's focus on the USAT cause that is where we are and if you weren't there please keep your mouth shut. No "I know some one who knows someone who told them who told me" crap. You weren't there so let it go.

How many of you are on the USAT's Martial Arts Council. You can whine and complain all you want but that changes nothing if you do not have a voice that can be heard.

All of you "Masters", how many of you are actually certified as instructor versus those who are 4th Dan and because they are that makes them God? A 4th Dan is like the white belt of masters, think about this.............

How many of you volunteer at a USAT event, meet the people who work there, learn how the system works, and actually contribute to the success of the event? Sorry, sitting in the stands yelling at the referees really doesn't count.

It's very easy to sit back and whine about how unfair everything is, how you or your player was screwed, how biased the staff is, how yada yada yada... The sad thing is, I don't see many of you seeing your self in this light, and that is too bad.

So, if you think it's time to quit, to walk away, to play someplace else, please do. The whining, the complaining, the tears, the sighs , the OH SO Me crap really gives "ME" a head ache and to be honest, a you are a real pain in the butt. So, either help or leave. Make it easy on the rest of us.

OK, rant is over, if you have lasted this long, you have more patience than I do. :soapbox:

 

[mango.man]

On the subject of bad reffing, I do not need to be a ref to recognize bad officiating, be it in TKD, Baseball, Basketball, Football or anything else.

I know that bad calls are going to be made, I just wish that they would be made consistently. Ocassionally the wrong button will be pressed. Sometimes we will get screwed and sometimes we will benefit from it.

I know that all the referees sit in the same meeting before an event and presumably the rules are discussed as well as enforcement of the rules, but nothing gets my goat more than to be watching fights in ring 1 with ref A at the center imposing penalties for, let's say, stepping out of bounds and then the next fight the refs rotate and now person B is in the center and not even giving warnings for stepping out.

That is just a basic example, but it is something that happens at every single event at every level of this sport, including in Austin last weekend and the days before.

I would not mind being a referee, but I don't do it because I know I would screw it up too much. I have terrible hand eye coordination and I would most certainly be one of those that constantly pushes the wrong button. That sure doesn't mean that I don't recognize a point or a penalty when I see it though.

BTW, I am a L1 Coach, or at least I was a couple years ago when the coach certification program was put in place.

 

[TKD_Stops_Tilt]

There are so many masters, instructors, coaches and players on this forum that are constantly complaining about the unfairness of the competition, the ineptness of the judges, the complete and total unfairness of how the various USAT competition teams are chosen so I have a couple of basic questions. Please bear with me, this might take a minute or two.

I assume this post is in response to the recent complaints about the USAT National Team selection process. While you make some valids points regarding the general environment of complaining about inept scoring and unfair officiating that currently exists among masters and coaches, I would like to ask what you consider the criteria to qualify someone for criticizing the USAT selection process? Given that most posts have identified the problem as one of ethics, would you require each critic to possess a graduate degree in Philosophy/Ethics? If we follow the logic of your "soapbox", then I would assume this is what you expect. Let's be honest, I don't think someone needs such a degree to recognize an unethical situation. Nor do I believe that people have to have an A-Level certfication (essentially IR) to constructively criticize the officiating.

On the other hand, I think the point point you are trying to make is what discourages people from the USAT. The response to compliants and grievances in the past on other forums and message boards was the following: "You need to get involved and help the organization before you can criticize". Of course that response makes the assumption that somone complaining is not involved, which is quite condescending to say the least. Now the response that you are putting forth is: "You need to get involved more to help the organization before you can criticize". My question is when do you earn the right to criticize the USAT? Is the USAT going to organize a seminar series on that topic....Complaining 101? Can you pay to earn the right to criticize?

IMO, I think this is an important question because the USAT just held a board meeting recently where the general membership was invited to call in and participate. The meeting consisted of a former NGB official for another sport (Boxing I believe) providing a presentation/speech about how the board members and the general membership need to support the CEO and his or her decisions. If you read between the lines, the message delivered to the board members and general membership was "Don't question the powers that be".

That's a dangerous precedent.

 

[MSUTKD]

TKD Stops Tilt,

You also have very good points but those of us who are very involved as US Team members, referees, coaches of top players, state officers and competitors believe that is the price for admission; involvement. I would never speak for Wade but IMHO I think he asks the question, “What have you done to make it better”? I will agree that there is a lot of room for improvement in the USAT but things are getting better all the time.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the referees at the Poomsae Team Trials in Austin. They did an exceptional job!

 

[jks9199]

You all have some great points that apply across various organizations. I've noticed that both in my association's internal tournament and in open tournaments, you often see the same handful of black belts actually stepping up to judge and officiate. Some of this is due to formats that make it hard for a competitor to also judge (they may be called out to compete at any time...), some of it is due to sincere desires to coach & supervise your own students, some feel they've already put their time in & newer/younger BBs should do it, and finally some are just selfish & don't feel like stepping up to be blunt.

I suspect the same range occurs with USAT events. But the stakes seem to be perceived as higher, since there's the international/Olympic competition at hand -- which multiplies the whining! But it also does, from the outside, seem as if there's lots of opacity in the process -- and, again, from the outside, the last selection sure did seem to have motives beyond putting the best team out there.

I do absolutely agree that, if you want to complain, you have to be actively involved -- but not everyone can be actively involved, especially in light of the current economy. From the complaints I see here on MT, it seems that often decisions are perceived as coming down from above, with any attempt to influence or shape them being deflected, dodged, or subverted.

 

[terryl965]

Well I wa not there but and I know you do not a word from somebody else, but we live in America where free speach is accepted. TX_BB is one of my seconds he is an IR so I get directly from him about certain things and believe exactly what it is. Wade you know him so you know what he says is true. I have every right to complain since I am a member and a school member, I pay then to be part of something and since they take my money and promise fair play, they have given me tthe right. Zachary has been to Colorado trying to make the Jnior team and came up short, hell he may never make it or any of my players but to be honest I would love to have a even playing field.

The next subject is the you say do not mention the AAU but did you know that the AAU hs over two thirds of the juniors coming from there teams? They right now have a better grassroot proram than USAT, so that is why so many people go there to get certain experience.

As far as refereeing it has been bad well before Atlanta about 8 years ago and even though they are trying to make it right, too many 17 and 18 year old and for that matter too many not even training anymore to be an official. I believe the oficial are not perfect but then again nobdy is all people want is consistanty in the oficiating, I know I do.

I did vulenteer alot but after seeing what was so wrong being done it mad me believe that certain people will never get that fair chance. I will always support the USAT and AAU but that does not mean I have to agree with everything they do and I have the right to say what I like when I like and those thatdo not like it grow up and remember where we live and that is America and all the wars before now have given me that right. My father fought in world war 1 and korea and was in during viet nam so I wil complain and get on my soapbox say my peace voice my concerns and finally except it and go on.

Wade you have always been fair in your statements and I know it is frustrating to always hear negative words but remember if they keep moving forward one day the complaints wwill get less and less and hings wil get better.

 

[ATC]

Well I am a Level 1 coach and even though I do not ref much as I spend most of my time coaching, I am a D3 ref as well and our school also volunteers at USAT events when they are in San Jose or the West Coast.

As for National winners, we have had a few at the Jr. level and one about 4 years ago at the Sr. level.

Not sure if this qualifies me to express my opinion or not on USAT decisions but those are my credentials none the less.

 

[troubleenuf]

Let me throw a few questions out for you.... What has the coaches level seminars resulted in? Have ANY of those coaches who went through those seminars gained or been able to produce better athletes? And to answer you no I have NOT taken any of the "higher" level seminars since the changeover form the USTU coaches levels to the USAT.... Gave them a ton of money the first time, got VERY LITTLE out of it, dont see the reason to do it again.

I have had 3 Natinal champions in the 14 to 17 year old.... One USAT and 2 AAU. I dont think USAT and AAU are apples and oranges. I think you just want to believe that they are. Since I have been a life time member of the USTU/USTA for a crapload of years and just simply got tired of their no head kicking rule, and politics I have found the AAU a better fit at this time. Dosnt mean I wont go back if some things change, just dont see the benefit of hitting my head against the wall when I have better things to do and other options.
IF you are on the USATs martial arts council can you tell me what they have been able to accomplish since its inception? Actual accomplishments would be good. Not just talk or debates.
I imagine you are referring to Masters who are certified as instructors as those who have went to Korea for a weeks training to be certified? Let me ask you this.... do you really think a weeks training verses years of experience will really define who good of an instructor you are? If that is so it would make me wonder at your initial training rather than a week of classes. And to answer your question yes I have a instructors certificate from the Kukkiwon someplace in my pile of papers...
I volunteer every time I attend an event.... As a coach/instructor without me and my people NO one would be doing anything. Many people tend to forget that. The most important people at any tournament are the players, but its the coaches that train them and bring them.

 

[NPTKD]

I think some here do not know the difference between INSTRUCTORs & coaches!

I don't really follow alot of different sports, but I don't remember any Little league coaches complaining that they trained the guy who is now in the major leagues.

Maybe it's me...

 

[ATC]

I think some here do not know the difference between INSTRUCTORs & coaches!

I don't really follow alot of different sports, but I don't remember any Little league coaches complaining that they trained the guy who is now in the major leagues.

Maybe it's me...

I don't think you can equate baseball and TKD, on any level.

 

[terryl965]

I think some here do not know the difference between INSTRUCTORs & coaches!

I don't really follow alot of different sports, but I don't remember any Little league coaches complaining that they trained the guy who is now in the major leagues.

Maybe it's me...

Alot of instructors also coach there player, look at the lopez family, hell even Jaun does his own coaches with his top players. So how does Baseball fit into this equation? I am sure you have a point what it is I have no ideal.:erg:

 

[NPTKD]

Alot of instructors also coach there player, look at the lopez family, hell even Jaun does his own coaches with his top players. So how does Baseball fit into this equation? I am sure you have a point what it is I have no ideal.:erg:

No... not really.... I just like baseball!

 

[Miles]

I am a C1 referee but have never done a National event. I do as many State and regional events as my schedule (read: "Spouse") allows.

I have no Coaching credentials to speak of. When my students have attended National events, they've had the benefit of friendly coaches with vastly more experience than I.

I've participated in Nationals as a competitor twice. I've volunteered at Nationals.

My personal focus has been on more of a grass-roots level. I am very interested in my State's athletes getting the best training and competition opportunities possible.

I hear about the complaints from athletes, coaches, and parents. I think in any competitive environment, there are bound to be complaints-that's not a big issue for me.

My issue is what can you as an athlete do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? I had an instructor whose position was that if you lost, you didn't show the referees you were a better fighter....his thinking was you should be knocking out your opponent in every match.

What can you as a coach do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? Are you preparing your athletes in the best possible areas of technique, nutrition, strategy, match management, etc?

 

[terryl965]

What can you as a coach do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? Are you preparing your athletes in the best possible areas of technique, nutrition, strategy, match management, etc?

Miles I will address this portion of your excellent post since this is towards coaches. I have tought them sparring stategies since they was yellow belts also we have a Nutrition program that I personally got from the Colorado Olympic training center backa few years ago about proper nutrition for an athlete and my serious competitors follow it like clockwork. We also work on ring management and position so the referees can see just about everything they do and not there opponets, they get sent to some of the best people I know like Jason Poos, Greg Tubbs and Jimmy Kim not to mention Won Chik Park and GM Chang Lee and his Son Dong, along with a few others and they know who they are. We send them to seminars across this country that can be made plus bring people in to help. We have also been blessed with alot of great videos from certain peole with there footwork and philosophy on them. Like in August we will head up to Iowa and do Master Voorhes competition Seminar at his school you probaly seen it on TKD.Net. I do what I can to make them better except one thing that is being bully into letting others charge me an arm and a leg for some training camp. Zachary goes to the Olympic training center atleast once a year and I pay for that it does not mean just TKD but actual Olympic people training him in proper wieght training and Nutrition and cardio. I believe Jean and Jaun are great people but do not believe they are always the best people, we have Jason Poos wha has has more members on the National Team than anybody else for sparring but yet he is not in the mix at all or it seems. I am speaking for people and this is my perspection not there so do not qoute me as saying they said so, I believe the only way to get the best players is from a fight off or a point system from lets say five tournaments where there is a minimal of ten competitors for there division, the problem is some state tournaments only have maybe three competitors or less in these division. It is a no win stituation like I said, so until we get something that will please the majority and not the minority it will always be like this. Maybe what the USAT needs to do eacj prior is say these five tournament are the one will points will be awarded so people can make proper arrangement for travel prior to just saying things at the event.:asian:


On a different subject the U-24 program are for competitors from the age of 18-24 and not the juniors at all. We still need a better pipeline for those athletes and there families. Just me two cents anyway.

 

[ATC]

I am a C1 referee but have never done a National event. I do as many State and regional events as my schedule (read: "Spouse") allows.

I have no Coaching credentials to speak of. When my students have attended National events, they've had the benefit of friendly coaches with vastly more experience than I.

I've participated in Nationals as a competitor twice. I've volunteered at Nationals.

My personal focus has been on more of a grass-roots level. I am very interested in my State's athletes getting the best training and competition opportunities possible.

I hear about the complaints from athletes, coaches, and parents. I think in any competitive environment, there are bound to be complaints-that's not a big issue for me.

My issue is what can you as an athlete do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? I had an instructor whose position was that if you lost, you didn't show the referees you were a better fighter....his thinking was you should be knocking out your opponent in every match.

What can you as a coach do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? Are you preparing your athletes in the best possible areas of technique, nutrition, strategy, match management, etc?

All valid points and I can only tell you from my perspective that all the top athletes in this sport pretty much know each other. They do plenty of cross training with each other. I know our top fighter at our school goes across the country and even abroad to cross train with the best out there. He has even been coached by the top level coaches and even coached some of the top athletes. Jason Alverez, James Howle, Steven and Mark Lopez, and many others have all trained with and fought against him.

So to answer your question yes the best of the best do all of what you say.

The problem is not with the many average or just above average athletes, but with the top 2% super star athelets. The top 2% are all about the same level but the top 2% still make up a heck of a lot of people, that may get the short end of the stick, and on any given day anyone of them can beat each other. That is why the system needs to build in a “the winner advances” policy because that is fair and will keep these guys motivated, any other way and the sport losses because in the end it is the athlete that matters most.

 

[d1jinx]

I hear about the complaints from athletes, coaches, and parents. I think in any competitive environment, there are bound to be complaints-that's not a big issue for me.

My issue is what can you as an athlete do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? I had an instructor whose position was that if you lost, you didn't show the referees you were a better fighter....his thinking was you should be knocking out your opponent in every match.

What can you as a coach do better to avoid being in the position of having to complain? Are you preparing your athletes in the best possible areas of technique, nutrition, strategy, match management, etc?

I agree with what you have to say. I try not to complain, but sometimes can't help it. We have all been in a situation where the best fighter didnt win. It was the "known" fighter. Perfect example:
Recently, I had a female fighter compete in the BB division at juniors. First fight, i sit in the chair and guess who is across from me... Lynette Love. Right away I knew how the fight was gonna go. As a coach, I let my fighter know right then before we started, that the scoring wasnt gonna be fair and to make sure she scored more clean harder shots than the other girl and avoid getting hit with anything. So she went out and was murdering the girl in the first round. She was able to score and avoid any contact from the other girl. When the other girl started getting desperate, she charged like a linebacker and started thowing any and everything that she could trying to make it a slug fest and sure enough the points started piling up. All for her. She was hitting with the knees and missing completely but.... points went up. Round 1 ended and I told my fighter DO NOT GET INTO ANY SLUG FEST WITH HER. YOU WILL LOOSE. sure enough she went out and started hitting and moving avoiding any contact with the other competitor. But guess what. the other competitor charged her like a football player again and started swinging away. 5.6.7.8.9.10... points, over. just like that. not one point went up for my fighter and everyone went up within a few seconds for the other girl. And it was over. Who can I be mad at? As A coach, I knew what was gonna happen. I was nobody, she was Lynette Love. My fighter was nobody, her fighter was lynette love's student. In a situation like that YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU CLEARLY WIN. if you tag them and avoid them tagging you, or KNOCK them out... they will have a hard time declaring the other person the winner.
We have all seen it, arm shots go up as points, CLINCHES go up as points, this is all part of the strategy that i will have to work on with the few i have at that level. If you know that is gonna happen, dont stand there and get hit. Dont take a shot to give a shot because YOURS WONT GO UP. Yes it is frustrating. Yes it is demoralizing. Yes it teaches the kids that the best dont always win. And yes I Blame the refs. But I dont say it to my students, or raise an issue about it. I walk away positive and my fighter and me both know what we needed to do to win, and what we will do better next time.
If a coach is acting a fool, then the student will be even more upset than they already are. Thats not the example I wish to be.

And that girl went on to get first place. Worse fighter there. But she won!

And yes, I am a level 1 coach. Since the first year it came out... again (USTU cert coach before).
I am only a D-1 ref. I dont care about ref certs. they are meaningless. Half of the time I dont even fill out the paper to get credit for ref-ing an event. I see A-3 and A-2 refs that have only been a BB for 2 years, never competed and go to EVERY competition to get bumped up. They are a joke. And the same loosers who screw the matches up.
But we need them.