Unarmed martial arts and self-defense law in the US

[lklawson]

It is a common misconception that unarmed martial art techniques are not considered deadly force in the United States. Very often they are. And not just punching to the head or the like. Did you know that even joint locks at the elbow knee or ankle can be considered deadly force under most law in the US?

Self defense lawyer Andrew Branca explains in his segment of the American Warrior Society podcast here. Go to about the seven and a half minute mark and listen to his case of the week segment.

The American Warrior Show: You Ask - We Answer! Listener Q&A

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Danny T]

Yep.
The timeline for the Case of the Week begins at 17:20 not at the 7 1/2 minute mark.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They don't actually say a single word about the case of the week until about 17:40.
Seems pretty straight forward to me. Don't use more force than is necessary.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Not if you have a book on scaling force based on the force continuum which most police used to use. (not too sure if its popular now though)

the general theme is, if it maims or can incapacitate or kill its deadly force. Thats the general thing i see people repeat for a reason to shoot someone, if you fear any of those things for yourself or someone who you can argue a duty of care for.



Must say i need to try and break out some U.K sources as U.S policy is mostly useless outside of interest for me.

 

[jobo]

Not if you have a book on scaling force based on the force continuum which most police used to use. (not too sure if its popular now though)

the general theme is, if it maims or can incapacitate or kill its deadly force. Thats the general thing i see people repeat for a reason to shoot someone, if you fear any of those things for yourself or someone who you can argue a duty of care for.



Must say i need to try and break out some U.K sources as U.S policy is mostly useless outside of interest for me.

We don't have ' deadly force' as a legal concept in the uk

 

[Deleted member 39746]

We don't have ' deadly force' as a legal concept in the uk

I mean we do, as the police cant justify shooting anyone and they cant be prosecuted if we didn't. nor could anyone justify maiming or killing somone with a weapon attacking them.

We dont have anything which inherently gives you the right* to use deadly force to my knowledge though and the courts still decide if it was correct use of force etc.

* Like stand your ground and castle laws and derivatives. (to my knowledge of them)


im obviously not a lawyer nor have any credentials in that area. Also if i mis interpreted a joke please tell me.

 

[jobo]

I mean we do, as the police cant justify shooting anyone and they cant be prosecuted if we didn't. nor could anyone justify maiming or killing somone with a weapon attacking them.

We dont have anything which inherently gives you the right* to use deadly force to my knowledge though and the courts still decide if it was correct use of force etc.

* Like stand your ground and castle laws and derivatives. (to my knowledge of them)


im obviously not a lawyer nor have any credentials in that area. Also if i mis interpreted a joke please tell me.

well clearly we have force which is deadly, but not a legal concept of deadly force

a uk police man who shoots an armed and occasionally an unarmed suspect, isn't trying to kill them, not legally, they are trying to stop them from doing what ever, that they live or die isn't the issue, its that they are stopped, and the force must be the minimum that achieves that goal and that exactly the same for you and me, saying that you elected to use " deadly force" would see you having a long holiday
a few decades ago in northern Ireland, they had a " shoot to kill " policy that caused a lot of upset at the time and still, that's the closest we have come to a policy of using " deadly force" ie intending that the policeman actions should result in death or even serious injury

as there is no intent to kill, a uk policeman or someone defending themselves for that matter, could never be guilty of murder only manslaughter, no uk policeman has ever been convicted of manslaughter for a death he caused whilst on duty,let, alone murder, even where they have shot complete innocent and unarmed people

 

[lklawson]

We don't have ' deadly force' as a legal concept in the uk

that might be vaguely related to why the subject line ends with "...in the US."

 

[jobo]

that might be vaguely related to why the subject line ends with "...in the US."

I was putting one of my countrymen right, is this a US only thread, or can the civilised world join in !

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

that might be vaguely related to why the subject line ends with "...in the US."

He was replying to someone from the UK defining deadly force. FWIW, if I hadn't read Jobo's response directly after, I would have assumed Rat was providing the definition for deadly force in England.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is a common misconception that unarmed martial art techniques are not considered deadly force in the United States. Very often they are. And not just punching to the head or the like. Did you know that even joint locks at the elbow knee or ankle can be considered deadly force under most law in the US?

Self defense lawyer Andrew Branca explains in his segment of the American Warrior Society podcast here. Go to about the seven and a half minute mark and listen to his case of the week segment.

The American Warrior Show: You Ask - We Answer! Listener Q&A

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

I train kung fu and everyone knows the kung fu stuff doesn't work. So any deadly techniques from me is just going to written off as a fluke lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Don't use more force than is necessary.

This has always been the rule.

 

[lklawson]

I was putting one of my countrymen right, is this a US only thread, or can the civilised world join in !

Barbarians only.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[CB Jones]

a uk police man who shoots an armed and occasionally an unarmed suspect, isn't trying to kill them, not legally, they are trying to stop them from doing what ever, that they live or die isn't the issue, its that they are stopped,

It is the same in the US.

You don't shoot to kill...you shoot stop. We just define that as deadly force because the force could result in death. Even if you aimed and shot someone in the foot....that is deadly force because there is a chance of death.....but legally your actions are to stop them and once the threat stops deadly force has to stop.


Example: If I shoot the tires of a fleeing vehicle....I have to be able to justify deadly force even though I'm an not shooting to kill the driver...I'm only trying to stop the vehicle but that action creates the possibility of being deadly so it falls within deadly force category.

 

[Tez3]

a few decades ago in northern Ireland, they had a " shoot to kill " policy that caused a lot of upset at the time and still, that's the closest we have come to a policy of using " deadly force" ie intending that the policeman actions should result in death or even serious injury

The police officers (RUC) in Northern Ireland never had a shoot to kill policy, despite being the frequent target of killers ( and still are) they used the same rules as are still in force today. They remain some of the bravest officers I have ever worked with.
Here's when British police are legally allowed to shoot under a new policy on lethal force

 

[jobo]

The police officers (RUC) in Northern Ireland never had a shoot to kill policy, despite being the frequent target of killers ( and still are) they used the same rules as are still in force today. They remain some of the bravest officers I have ever worked with.
Here's when British police are legally allowed to shoot under a new policy on lethal force

this says differently
Shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland - Wikipedia

for our US cousins, a significant number of unarmed deaths resulted in an inquiry, when it looked like the inquiry might reveal the truth, they tried to frame the policman leading it and replaced him, the findings were never made public,
it's one of the most disturbing examples of a government cover up, since they used British forces to test the effect of the radiation released in a nuclear explosion

 

[Tez3]

this says differently
Shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland - Wikipedia

for our US cousins, a significant number of unarmed deaths resulted in an inquiry, when it looked like the inquiry might reveal the truth, they tried to frame the policman leading it and replaced him, the findings were never made public,
it's one of the most disturbing examples of a government cover up, since they used British forces to test the effect of the radiation released in a nuclear explosion

Sure, Wikipedia...hang on a minute and I'll go and edit it.

'Unarmed' deaths, of course lets not count the thousands killed by the terrorists. 300 Northern Irish police officers, some on their doorsteps in front of their families .
Police Roll of Honour - Northern Ireland - Criminal Acts
31 Northern Irish prison officers.
Memorials
Over 2000 civilians.

19 child soldiers of the IRA.
Troubles: The children killed in line of fire in Northern Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Don't for one minute make the mistake of thinking that the protestors were unarmed on Bloody Sunday Unless you served on Op Banner you have absolutely no idea what was going on.

 

[jobo]

Sure, Wikipedia...hang on a minute and I'll go and edit it.

'Unarmed' deaths, of course lets not count the thousands killed by the terrorists. 300 Northern Irish police officers, some on their doorsteps in front of their families .
Police Roll of Honour - Northern Ireland - Criminal Acts
31 Northern Irish prison officers.
Memorials
Over 2000 civilians.

19 child soldiers of the IRA.
Troubles: The children killed in line of fire in Northern Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Don't for one minute make the mistake of thinking that the protestors were unarmed on Bloody Sunday Unless you served on Op Banner you have absolutely no idea what was going on.

and that rant disproves the shoot to kill policy and the cover up how?

unless your saying just ok to execute " bad men " with out bothering a court,

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

This is rapidly becoming a political discussion. So either stop, now, or take it over to US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum where it belongs. Or expect to see the thread locked and people getting points.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

 

[Tez3]

It's not political to me, my fiancé died in Northern Ireland from a mine, another of his men died with him, and one lost both his legs. And I sat and held the hand of a woman as the body her policeman husband who was shot dead in front of her and her children, was taken away. I'm not making political statements but I will not have the memories of brave, hard working men and women besmirched by someone who has a chip on his shoulder.