U.S based schools mostly useless?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow another TKD sucks thread very original....

And in the TKD section of course.

 

[Sukerkin]

According to the OP what it is actually supposed to be about is the relatively low value 'product' of American school belt factories rather than any inherent weakness of TKD itself.

If it descends into outright style bashing flame wars then it will be dealt with through the official channels - meantime I suggest that people be a little less 'precious' and defensive. It's just a martial art, people, no need to lose your sanity or your temper over what is, in the end, a hobby.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The other thing they all have in common is that they have all cross trained and not relied on their primary skill .. not that others haven't had to do the same thing.

I think that it is safe to say that if one does not cross train, one will not be successful in MMA, regardless of what the core style is.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.

I don't kickbox, but I assume that kickboxers use their hands differently than they do in WTF taekwondo tournaments. Given that WTF rules emphasize kicks to the near exclusion of the hands, and given that Joe (I've never heard of him; is he related to Seth?) indicates that he was training specifically for WTF tournament fighting (he expressed a desire to go to the Olympics in taekwondo), I suspect that his competitive hand skills were fairly weak. But a guy who plays in one fight sport not doing well fighting in a different fight sport doesn't equate to real world self defense.

I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.

If he didn't realize it then it wasn't his point. I also disagree that US TKD schools do a poor job of teaching you to use your hands. They don't teach you to use your hands the same way that a boxing gym does, which makes sense, as TKD isn't boxing. Also, a high level competitor in a handsy fight sport trains specifically for his sport. If you haven't been training for his sport and just step in, don't expect to outshine him.

Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?

I can only say that in Korea, the average time to black belt is one year based on what people who train in Korea say. It represents completion of the most basic level and is not viewed as a black belt is here.

As to whether the average three to four year practitioner in Korea is clueless about self defense I wouldn't know. Unless a poster has trained in Korea, they probably shouldn't answer.

 

[sopraisso]

According to the OP what it is actually supposed to be about is the relatively low value 'product' of American school belt factories rather than any inherent weakness of TKD itself.

If it descends into outright style bashing flame wars then it will be dealt with through the official channels - meantime I suggest that people be a little less 'precious' and defensive. It's just a martial art, people, no need to lose your sanity or your temper over what is, in the end, a hobby.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

What do you mean by hobby?!?! To me the main purpose of TKD is to flip out and kill people, and obviously, I train with only those intents in mind!

 

[sopraisso]

I pretty much agree that TKD's traditional hand/arm techniques are not best fit for competition settings. They're just too conservative for that, because they were designed not to KO an opponent in a controlled (and relatively safe) environment, but instead to make you overcome the agression and survive (fleeing, for example!). From my understanding, most (if not all) differences in hand strategies between traditional TKD and, say, boxing, are due to the difference in intent/context. Boxing cares so much more with power generation, for example, even to a point of sacrificing a little grip from the feet on the ground (although I know not all TKD styles support the opposing, deep rooted stances -- but I believe it was like that at least in the old kwan era, and is still like that in various traditional schools), or to chamber punches from the upper side of the body instead of from the hip, all in order to build more power, but leaving the body a little more open or sacrificing stability.

Think of the heel of the boxer's back foot going off the floor when he throws a cross: would he be so confident to punch like that if the floor was wet or with objects around (pebbles, grass, cracks, broken glass), or with other agressors ready to make him lose his balance? The same goes for the "loading/chambering" motion (yes, because the stronger punches in boxing do have a chamber, a "loading" to build more power, normally positioning the arm on the side of the upper body -- that takes greater advantadge of the muscles of the back): would it be such a great idea to punch like that if another attacker can grab your arm from the back, or simply due to the fact that your punching arm for a second goes too far from the center of your body, leaving you more open when it's a life-or-death situation?

As I said, in my opinion traditional TKD does have too conservative hand/arm strategies, that were designed to protect you in real self-defense. Falling is more likely to happen, and if it does, it is more dangerous. Knocking the opponent out is not as important as just being able to stun him and run away. Basically, for a different scenario, you need different strategies, and traditional TKD hand/arm techniques just weren't designed to the sport/MMA/kickboxing scenario. By the way, has anyone ever heard of sport kickboxers learning attacks to the eyes, throat or groin? These targets are widely considered good ones in self-defense. How would a kickboxer go against a TKD fighter who "fights dirty", with techniques learned just in TKD (at least in higher levels)? I would say: "my rules, I win; your rules, you win"!

Finally, a real problem we often see is TKD instructors defending traditional strategies to be used in modern sport environments. I believe that just won't work, because, as I said, those strategies were made to a different context. So I don't like "hands down guard", but I'm all for it if it works better in sport/WTF TKD, as I'm all for bouncing if it works as well and so on (although I understand very little of those things ). Equally, sport strategies to be used in self-defense scenarios is certainly a misguided idea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I pretty much agree that TKD's traditional hand/arm techniques are not best fit for competition settings. They're just too conservative for that, because they were designed not to KO an opponent in a controlled (and relatively safe) environment, but instead to make you overcome the agression and survive (fleeing, for example!). From my understanding, most (if not all) differences in hand strategies between traditional TKD and, say, boxing, are due to the difference in intent/context. Boxing cares so much more with power generation, for example, even to a point of sacrificing a little grip from the feet on the ground (although I know not all TKD styles support the opposing, deep rooted stances -- but I believe it was like that at least in the old kwan era, and is still like that in various traditional schools), or to chamber punches from the upper side of the body instead of from the hip, all in order to build more power, but leaving the body a little more open or sacrificing stability.

Kwan era taekwondo looked pretty much like Shotokan. In fact, they were using the same forms at that time as well so far as I know.

I cannot speak for Chang Hon taekwondo, and I haven't practiced Jhoon Rhee taekwondo since I was a child, but Kukki taekwondo favors a more upright and mobile posture. Feet are generally no wider than shoulder width apart. Even a forward inflection stance (ap kubi) is not particularly low or long, and certainly doesn't resemble a deep lunge like you'd see in foil.

As for whether or not taekwondo's traditonal hand/arm techniques are suited to competition settings, it depends on the setting in question. They're essentially the same fare you see in Shotokan, so they would be fine in karate style tournaments, though a competitor used to WTF rules would likely have to make a lot of adjustment in training and strategy.

 

[Gorilla]

Your guard is different...your set ups are different...your footwork is different...in karate and Tkd comps...tech 's from each work...but you have to be able to adapt to each....the sports are quite different

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Your guard is different...your set ups are different...your footwork is different...in karate and Tkd comps...tech 's from each work...but you have to be able to adapt to each....the sports are quite different

Definitely. As I said, a competitor used to WTF rules would likely have to make a lot of adjustment in training and strategy. Particularly with regards to hand usage. The rules are so different that it really is starting a brand new sport. The fact that the techniques carry over is a nice bonus, but a longtime WTF competitor would likely have no advantage or be at a disadvantage against a high colored belt karateka.

Of course the same is true in reverse; a high colored belt Kukki taekwondoin would have an advantage over a longtime karateka who just started WTF tournaments.

 

[Gorilla]

One of my sons TKD trainers came to watch him in the NKF Karate US Open at the Paris Hotel in Las Vegas. It was the first time he had seen one of these tournaments live. He was amazed at how differently he fought in Karate vs TKD.

He also had to witness on of the bigger adjustments you have to make... Charlie KO'd a kid in the first round of the tournament on Sunday with a high round house the kid ran into...part of the sport...In karate you get DQ'd for a KO!

All was not lost he won a bronze medal in JR International cup on Friday!

 

[IcemanSK]

I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring.

As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0

To be fair to Rogan, that video of him bashing TKD was several years old. At that point, he had just discoveered BJJ & he was seeing things from a very new perspective. At that time, he was willing to set his old training behind & go full force into the new. Time has certainly changed his perspective & he's come back to a more positive view of Taekwondo.

 

[Earl Weiss]

This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
.....................

Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?

How the Heck did you morph what Rogan said about WTF / Olympic style sparring vis a vis use of the hands for kickboxing, MMA and SD into something to do with American TKD standards?

 

[Gorilla]

Great post!!!! What I wanted to say!!!! Hit the nail on the head!!! He has absolutely changed his rhetoric about TKD...He has been more positive about it as of late...

I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring.

As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0

To be fair to Rogan, that video of him bashing TKD was several years old. At that point, he had just discoveered BJJ & he was seeing things from a very new perspective. At that time, he was willing to set his old training behind & go full force into the new. Time has certainly changed his perspective & he's come back to a more positive view of Taekwondo.

 

[sopraisso]

I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring.

As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0

To be fair to Rogan, that video of him bashing TKD was several years old. At that point, he had just discoveered BJJ & he was seeing things from a very new perspective. At that time, he was willing to set his old training behind & go full force into the new. Time has certainly changed his perspective & he's come back to a more positive view of Taekwondo.

Thanks for the vid! I think it will be a good motivational to the fellows in my school.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Great post!!!! What I wanted to say!!!! Hit the nail on the head!!! He has absolutely changed his rhetoric about TKD...He has been more positive about it as of late...

One of his curent comments has been about the prior underutilization and increasing use of the Back kick / reverse side kick, and how he expects to see more of it.

 

[Gorilla]

One of his curent comments has been about the prior underutilization and increasing use of the Back kick / reverse side kick, and how he expects to see more of it.

Tkd techs are being used more and more in MMA...TKD has a lot to add...it mixes well with MT and boxing...

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm not a huge Rogan fan but that has more to do with the fact that I think he's the aging jock bully that everyone hated in high school. He has some ok points as far as TKD and MMA goes, more so lately.

I lost a lot of respect for Joe after his "How fat can a referee be" crack.

 

[Drasken]

Tkd techs are being used more and more in MMA...TKD has a lot to add...it mixes well with MT and boxing...

I actually read an article, which I'm trying to find once again, about how similar TKD and MT kicks really are. The master who was interviewed also pointed out the fundamental ways they are different, but he ( a MT guy ) trained with a lot of TKD practitioners and incorperates a lot of TKD kicks into his own methods.
Was a very interesting read.

I practice a little MT off and on with my friend and his instructor, and have a fascination with TKD kicks because of the destructive power of the techniques.

 

[Gorilla]

Drasken...that is what I have found a lot of people on this BBS put down sport TKD and some TKD in general calling our kicks flicky and lacking power but when we work with serious people in other arts they are fascinated and impressed with Tkd kicks. Just like GSP in the video!

 

[TKDTony2179]

I agree with him on the punching, I see so many videos of TKD people in various places in fights, trying to punch and the form looks horrid. I wonder if ill ever see a video of a TKD BB in a fight, that can not only kick, but punch good as well..

http://www.youtube.com/user/taekwondoversus

These are some guys that went full contact and can punch and kick well.