Two Taekwondo contestants have altercation before contest

[granfire]

Though it is still popular to try and link TKD to Hwarang warriors, the truth is that there is no direct connection at all, even through the tenants. If you actually look into the whole Silla dynasty you will find that it was not such a romantic time period as people would have you think.

No time period was romantic. not even the romantic time period.

Lofty ideal are put in place because the reality looks vastly different.

That includes the rules of chivalry of the European knights just as well.

I am sure the inception of TKD was not romantic either.

However, in the root of TKD are numerous arts and traditions that have a base in tenets and rules that rein in the force.
be it the Bushido, via Shotokan Karate, or the principles of Buddhism...

While it may not have been spelled out by the KKW, I have my doubts that behavior like the one we are talking about would have gone over well. Actually in either above mentioned society...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Glenn can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is trying to say when bringing "American" into this, is a negative value of instant gratification and the "I deserve..." type attitude. Not that this is a value only Americans have, but it is quite abundant in our society and can be seen in everything from business to the martial arts.

Koreans, or any nation for that matter, do not have a monopoly in good upbringing. In the same sense America, or any other nation, corner the market in bad upbringing and disrespect towards seniors. I believe there is a thread on here already about culture clashes within TKD.

As has been mentioned, good manners, discipline, courtesy etc are not the domain of the 'far east'. The is a stereotype. There are just as many people of good quality around the world despite what Hollywood and Wall Street would have us believe.

In regards to disrespect of 'seniors', this needs to be addressed head on. Time was when 'ole round eye' was impressed with the 'new' way of fighting. Time was when 'respect' was demanded rather than earned by many 'seniors'. Time was when 'juniors' didn't question 'seniors' even when 'seniors' were acting dishonestly, disrespectfully or dishonorably. Those times are gone. And thankfully and rightfully so! It isn't disrespect to ask 'why'. It isn't disrespect to question certain less-than-above-board practices. That is what you call quality control.

 

[puunui]

Glenn can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is trying to say when bringing "American" into this, is a negative value of instant gratification and the "I deserve..." type attitude. Not that this is a value only Americans have, but it is quite abundant in our society and can be seen in everything from business to the martial arts.

What I mean is that the USAT, which is the organization sponsoring the tournament that the altercation occurred which is the subject of this topic, was born out of the actions of a group of American born practitioners (and some non practitioners) who quite disrespectfully had almost all of the Korean born practitioners removed from the organization. There really were no Korean borns who supported the violent overthrow of the USTU and it really was the actions of a group of American borns. The bylaws of the organization were also changed, the focus being that never again would Korean born practitioners gain control of the organization. Feeling disrespected and unwanted, the vast majority of Korean born practitioners left, taking their students with them. The result is a crippled and bankrupt organization mired in mismanagement, which is humorous, given that this is what the American born protesters were accusing the Korean born leadership of the USTU of. Having spawned from that type of mentality (hatred and disrespect towards seniors or those in authority, in the name of American values, American leadership and American control), my point is that it is only a matter of time before the mentality and attitude filters down to the next generation. The heart of what the kid did was, once again, an attitude of disrespect towards seniors or those in authority. Frankly, I am surprised that it doesn't happen more often. I am speaking specifically about what happened in the USTU and what is now going on in the successor organization, the USAT, which is where this incident occurred.

I remember growing up my neighbor had a rebellious daughter who always gave her parents problems. There was always screaming and fighting and tantrums from the daughter, throwing furniture in the house and disrupting the neighborhood. I felt for the other kids and also the parents of the daughter. She ended up running away from home numerous times and became pregnant at age 15. She married the guy who got her pregnant, the husband being an alcoholic who physically abused her. When the daughter finally sought help from the parents whom she had disrespected and caused so much problems for, the mother said "You made your bed, and now you are going to have to sleep in it."

I cannot help but feel the same way for those who disrespected their seniors in creating USAT. They too made their bed, and now have to sleep in it. Each day that passes, I care less and less about USAT. I am at the point where I only care about certain good people and their students who continue to labor under extremely adverse circumstances at USAT. I wonder whether there will come a time when I don't care at all.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Interesting. Are you making the charge that the USAT discriminates intentionally against Korean-born instructors/practitioners? According to their bylaws Section 4.1g BOD's are selected without regard to race, gender etc. Additionally, they are voted in (section 5.2). Just out of curiousity, how many Americans are at high levels in the KKW? Or Brits or Pakastani's or well, anyone non-Korean?

 

[granfire]

Interesting. Are you making the charge that the USAT discriminates intentionally against Korean-born instructors/practitioners? According to their bylaws Section 4.1g BOD's are selected without regard to race, gender etc. Additionally, they are voted in (section 5.2). Just out of curiousity, how many Americans are at high levels in the KKW? Or Brits or Pakastani's or well, anyone non-Korean?

Have you read anything that Rhonda posted....lately?

it's not like the bylaws are but mere suggestions at this time!

 

[puunui]

As has been mentioned, good manners, discipline, courtesy etc are not the domain of the 'far east'. The is a stereotype. There are just as many people of good quality around the world despite what Hollywood and Wall Street would have us believe.

Never said it was.

In regards to disrespect of 'seniors', this needs to be addressed head on. Time was when 'ole round eye' was impressed with the 'new' way of fighting. Time was when 'respect' was demanded rather than earned by many 'seniors'. Time was when 'juniors' didn't question 'seniors' even when 'seniors' were acting dishonestly, disrespectfully or dishonorably. Those times are gone. And thankfully and rightfully so! It isn't disrespect to ask 'why'. It isn't disrespect to question certain less-than-above-board practices. That is what you call quality control.

My perspective is this: In regards to disrespect of seniors, this needs to be addressed head on. Time was when everyone wanted to learn everything that there was about the martial arts, and not only the physical. Time was when respect was automatically given rather than "earned". Time was when juniors or students maintained their respect and discipline even though they did not understand at the time what the teacher was teaching, like Daniel san waxing on and off. Those times are gone. Thankfully and rightfully so? I don't think so. And I have always asked why, in a polite and respectful fashion, especially when i didn't understand what was going on. This is what you call the student teacher martial arts relationship.

In my opinion, again, the key is in the selection of a good teacher. How do you select a good teacher? That is a topic that can be discussed on many levels.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And I have always asked why, in a polite and respectful fashion, especially when i didn't understand what was going on. This is what you call the student teacher martial arts relationship.

Really? Didn't you discuss in another thread turning a blind eye to a seniors questionable practices? Something along the line of racially discriminatory promotional practices? You mentioned that one doesn't question seniors. That isn't a healthy student/teacher relationship Glenn. Not trying to hammer you, but it can't go both ways. If something is wrong...it's wrong. Doesn't matter what nationality the person may be and this is the point I'm making.

 

[puunui]

Really? Didn't you discuss in another thread turning a blind eye to a seniors questionable practices? Something along the line of racially discriminatory promotional practices? You mentioned that one doesn't question seniors. That isn't a healthy student/teacher relationship Glenn. Not trying to hammer you, but it can't go both ways. If something is wrong...it's wrong. Doesn't matter what nationality the person may be and this is the point I'm making.

Try and read it again. I think that is what you THINK I said, mainly because I believe that you are looking at it from your point of view instead of trying to honestly understand mine. For example, I've repeatedly said ask my teachers questions when I don't understand something. Sometimes they tell me the answer right away and other times they tell me wait and see and you will understand, which I eventually do. How do you think I get all the information and knowledge that I share on here? I get it from my teachers and seniors, through conversations and lessons which include, but is not limited to, asking questions and receiving answers. I will say that I do not start from a conclusion, assuming or judging someone or something to be "wrong" from my perspective, but rather I honestly and sincerely attempt to understand things from my teacher's and my senior's perspective. That and I have spent a great deal of time selecting my teachers very carefully.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Try and read it again.

Okay, let's take a look;

From the thread titled "Youngest KKW BB at age 6. Page 11, post #152

Why would that story, even if true, affect GM Dunn's relationship to his teacher? One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question. This person went on to all kinds of negative things, or at least he attempted to do so. When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued with our teacher student relationship.

I had just relayed the story of how my instructor was basically the victim of racially motivated discriminatory promotional practices by his Korean GM. In short, the Korean GM brought in a fellow Korean blue belt. My instructor taught him per the Korean GM's instruction. This Korean blue belt disappears after 6 months only to resurface as a 4th Dan. The first thing you did in your quote is try to suggest that the story may not be true. Why, is it such an unheard of thing in KKW TKD for this to happen? Obviously not, as you replied immediately with;

One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question.

Here's the deal, airport promotions, back door promotions, racially motivated promotions are wrong regardless of the nationality. So you asked about it;

When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued with our teacher student relationship.

So since you call the guy a loser I'm assuming he wasn't worthy of the promotion. I'd be willing to bet money was involved in both of these situations. Your GM basically blew you off Glenn. A 'do as I say, not as I do' thing. That's crap. And you swallowed it. Why? So your next promotion wouldn't be in jeopardy? So you wouldn't rock the boat? So you wouldn't be black balled? And then you have the gall to suggest we respect people like this? Bow down to them or be the first to jump to attention when they enter the room. Clearly we have different values on these issues.

I honestly and sincerely attempt to understand things from my teacher's and my senior's perspective. That and I have spent a great deal of time selecting my teachers very carefully.

It is quite clear that their 'perspective' is making money and chasing the almighty dollar in mass commercialism rather than integrity. From your own words I think you should have been even more careful. No offense intended Glenn, but I'm not buying what you're selling. I know that your doing your best to be the KKW answer man and give it all a good spin, but I truly feel they've sold you out. This isn't to say that all members or 'seniors' of the KKW are dishonest or act dishonorably but lets not white-wash those that are just for the sake of keeping the idea of the KKW alive and kicking. People can see through the 'damage control'.

 

[puunui]

So since you call the guy a loser I'm assuming he wasn't worthy of the promotion. I'd be willing to bet money was involved in both of these situations. Your GM basically blew you off Glenn. A 'do as I say, not as I do' thing. That's crap. And you swallowed it. Why? So your next promotion wouldn't be in jeopardy? So you wouldn't rock the boat? So you wouldn't be black balled? And then you have the gall to suggest we respect people like this? Bow down to them or be the first to jump to attention when they enter the room. Clearly we have different values on these issues.

What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me. It wasn't a do as I say and not as I do, because he has never questioned any of my promotion recommendations. So he really has a point. He doesn't question me, and so why should I question him? As for the fear type concerns that you raised "jeopardize future promotions, being black balled, etc." that really isn't the dynamic that I have with any of my instructors, ever. Like I have stated previously, I feel no insecurity about being kicked out, black balled or whatever else from any of my teachers, anymore than I have those kinds of fears from my parents. I don't have that sort of relationship with my teachers, and I don't have that sort of relationship with my parents.

It is quite clear that their 'perspective' is making money and chasing the almighty dollar in mass commercialism rather than integrity. From your own words I think you should have been even more careful. No offense intended Glenn, but I'm not buying what you're selling. I know that your doing your best to be the KKW answer man and give it all a good spin, but I truly feel they've sold you out. This isn't to say that all members or 'seniors' of the KKW are dishonest or act dishonorably but lets not white-wash those that are just for the sake of keeping the idea of the KKW alive and kicking. People can see through the 'damage control'.

This was my Hapkido teacher, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the Kukkiwon. I practice Hapkido as well and not just Kukki Taekwondo. As for their perspective, I would say that this particular teacher tends to give people what they expect. Some come to him wanting only rank. Others come to him wanting to learn deeply, everything that he has to offer. The martial arts, like anything else, really is about what you put into it. And it underlines really the whole point of the paper anyway, which is that in the end, it really does not matter what the number on your paper that you have, because who you are and what you know will always shine through, at least to the practitioners that I associate with. We rarely, if ever, discuss rank.

As for the other stuff you accuse me of, it really doesn't matter what my response will be because it is clear that you made up your mind about the Kukkiwon long before you even were a member of this board. If you don't like the Kukkiwon, then don't get their certification. And I don't expect you or anyone else to change your mind. That really isn't the point of these discussions, from my perspective. Rather, it is, like in every other aspect of the martial arts, simply another opportunity for self discovery.

I do find it interesting on some level though, that part of the claim of legitimacy for your instructor and your Kong Soo Do organization, is through his Kukkiwon certification, and by extension, the Kukkiwon certification of his instructor and his instructor's instructor. I think you stated something about not having it both ways, I might suggest that you also should consider whether that is something that you might consider refraining from yourself.

And there is no damage control, because no matter what you say, there will always be more people who recognize the value of Kukkiwon certification and will seek it out. Seven million and counting, and the number seems to be growing exponentially. If you don't want it, fine, because people who do want it goes down the block and around the corner.

 

[andyjeffries]

What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me. It wasn't a do as I say and not as I do, because he has never questioned any of my promotion recommendations. So he really has a point. He doesn't question me, and so why should I question him?

This very much fits with a perspective I'm gaining from BJJ. In BJJ the question is never "is he certified under the IBJJF?" but "who gave him his black belt?". In BJJ it seems a much more personal thing, black belts promoting worthy students to black belt (who may then promote others). I even remember reading a quote a while back when a senior grade was asked whether a certain person was worthy of a BJJ black belt and his reply was along the lines of "I'm not going to question why X gave him a black belt, that's his business".

Over the years my opinions on testing have changed from being a student's point of view that it's just a sign of progress on the way to black belt to an instructor's point of view in feeling like you're giving a little bit of trust to the student with every rank, hoping they'll carry on in a good vein and not misuse/water down what you're teaching them. I still like the formality of a grading situation rather than just an after class "here's your new belt" as I think it gives the students something to learn to cope with, but I feel the actual giving of the rank is a bit more personal. For the record, I haven't promoted anyone yet, but these are my feelings about it and I am looking forward to having a student ready to promote.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me.

That all sound really good, even enlightened. But I can't help but feel that your simply putting an esoteric spin on what boils down to this man selling rank for profit. At least that is what it seems like since my example defined this and you said they were similar. If he truly didn't care about rank or promotions, perhaps he should have led by example and given up rank, and by extension not promoted anyone. That would truly have been inspiring. As it is, it simply sounds like another example of commercialism trumping integrity.

My apologies for confusing this HKD instructor with a KKW TKD instructor, you'll understand my natural assumption given the public track record of KKW TKD.

And it underlines really the whole point of the paper anyway, which is that in the end, it really does not matter what the number on your paper that you have, because who you are and what you know will always shine through, at least to the practitioners that I associate with. We rarely, if ever, discuss rank.

Interesting opinion you postulate given you were so interested in me and my instructors rank. Why would it matter? If later on this afternoon I decided to promote myself to 8th Dan in my own system would you have something to say about it? By your own words, it really doesn't matter what the number is on the paper, it is who you are and what you know that shines through. I'm not planning to do so by-the-way, just tossing out an example. But then you seemed to have a bit of a snit about going from 6th to 7th in one year, despite the restructuring of my rank to the new system to incorporate the totality of my 36 years in the martial arts. Which I found rather odd since you didn't bat an eye about a Korean buying his rank and going from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year. A bit of a double standard it would seem. Pick one stance to stand on and stick with it my friend. Don't waver just because of someone's ethnic background...or if they have a differing opinion than your own on an internet discussion board.

As for the other stuff you accuse me of, it really doesn't matter what my response will be because it is clear that you made up your mind about the Kukkiwon long before you even were a member of this board.

Please stop with the victim mentality. The switch between that and antagonist gets tiresome. I haven't accused you of anything, I'm only discussing comments that you have recently made that have a bearing on the topic of the thread. Yes, I have a stated opinion on the KKW or any organization that shows favoritism, bad business practices, money-grabs, embezzlement, unfair or biased promotions and zero accountability. I'm just a stickler on such things. Doesn't mean I don't like people that have chosen it, but I don't view it from the perspective of rosey turn-a-blind-eye lenses. If they are really concerned with helping the world of TKD, let them reduce their fee to about 10 bucks regardless of the rank. That would cover the buck it costs to print the paper and S&H. And let them come out with a iron-clad ruling that KKW instructors can't inflate the price. Now THAT would help the TKD'ist.

I do find it interesting on some level though, that part of the claim of legitimacy for your instructor and your Kong Soo Do organization, is through his Kukkiwon certification, and by extension, the Kukkiwon certification of his instructor and his instructor's instructor

Really? I don't remember advertising this. His KKW cert is his business and really has had no bearing on what and how we teach. It shows a link to Korea I suppose, for whatever that is worth. I believe it is mentioned somewhere on the IKSDA website that his instructors are with the KKW, but that is a matter of history rather than philosophy. I don't believe he is mentioned as being a KKW master though on the website.

And there is no damage control, because no matter what you say, there will always be more people who recognize the value of Kukkiwon certification and will seek it out. Seven million and counting, and the number seems to be growing exponentially. If you don't want it, fine, because people who do want it goes down the block and around the corner.

Hmmm...I've seen the numbers and the stats. It seems like an huge percentage of that number are in Korea itself. Let's take a look shall we;

Reposted from ArchTKD

I've got a copy of stats I pulled from the Kukkiwon back in 2001, which in part state the following:

1. There were a total of 1,649,592 Poom holders (1st Poom - 4th Poom) worldwide. Of those 1,589,517 where in Korea

2. There were a total of 2,951,778 Dan holders (1st-9th). 2,775,932 of those were in Korea.

3. There was a total of 216 9th Dans worldwide back then Of those 179 were in Korea.

4. There was a total of 38,140 4th dans worldwide. Of those 33,592 where in Korea.

5. Back then, the US (No. 2 in total poom and dan holders from leader Korea) had a total of 28,653 Kukkiwon 1st dans; 7,273 2nd Dans, 2,718 3rd Dans; 1052 4th Dan and 372 5th Dans. (I don't have data for other dans.

Just looking at these numbers for the date given, 2.9 million Dan holders....of which 2.7 million were in Korea. Now the numbers have gone up of course in the last 10 years, but I doubt the % has changed much. A since TKD is basically for the kids in Korea, and it only takes about a year to reach it in Korea I'd say it probably doesn't mean a whole lot. It certainly isn't like you try to portray i.e. people lining up around the corner outside of Korea to get one. I remember talking with a American KKW 7th a few years ago (I think you know him as well), he came to the realization of what it was really worth and now keeps them in a box in the back of the closet.

Out of curiousity, I wonder if the KKW charges the same think to all those Korean school kids that they do in other countries like the U.S.?

 

[miguksaram]

If they are really concerned with helping the world of TKD, let them reduce their fee to about 10 bucks regardless of the rank. That would cover the buck it costs to print the paper and S&H. And let them come out with a iron-clad ruling that KKW instructors can't inflate the price. Now THAT would help the TKD'ist.

Perhaps you can help explain how they will pay the salaries of the people who work there, the taxes on the land they own, the utilities they use and the funding for the events they hold which they will house and feed the competitors.

Also, as a school owner would you abide this philosophy and only charge for the paper and nothing else? Do you run your school to make any kind of profit or do you not care?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Perhaps you can help explain how they will pay the salaries of the people who work there, the taxes on the land they own, the utilities they use and the funding for the events they hold which they will house and feed the competitors.

I'm sorry, are we talking about teaching a martial art or running a large corporation for commercial gain?

Also, as a school owner would you abide this philosophy and only charge for the paper and nothing else? Do you run your school to make any kind of profit or do you not care?

As a school owner, I charged just enough to pay the rent and keep the lights on. Nothing, I repeat nothing went into my pocket. The few times we had a bit of excess (as from doing a seminar) it went to a children's charity. That's just the way I roll. I have never charged a penny for testing someone. That was stated up front when I accepted a new student. I was able to print out a nice certificate at Sir Speedy or Kinco for a buck and I paid it myself. So no, I don't care about a profit. To me the martial arts are not a business. YMMV

 

[miguksaram]

I'm sorry, are we talking about teaching a martial art or running a large corporation for commercial gain?

We are talking about the KKW which houses millions of people certification information. Runs countless testings, puts on a world class tournament which they foot the bill for food and housing of its competitors. Do you really know what it is that the KKW does or do you feel that it is just 3 people huddled in a cubicle rubber stamping pieces of paper as they come in.

As a school owner, I charged just enough to pay the rent and keep the lights on. Nothing, I repeat nothing went into my pocket. The few times we had a bit of excess (as from doing a seminar) it went to a children's charity. That's just the way I roll. I have never charged a penny for testing someone. That was stated up front when I accepted a new student. I was able to print out a nice certificate at Sir Speedy or Kinco for a buck and I paid it myself. So no, I don't care about a profit. To me the martial arts are not a business. YMMV

Well that is very admirable. So then why charge at all? Just pay for everything out of your back pocket; rent, utilities, etc. Just do it for free if it is not a business for you.

Unlike you, other have decided to base their life on being a professional martial arts teacher. In which case they have to treat it like a business which means making profits off of things they do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Do you really know what it is that the KKW does...

Yes I do, which is why I question the need for their existence. It certainly didn't need to grow to the extent it has simply to house peoples certifications. It has become a business. That isn't a disrespectful statement, simply stating a fact.

Well that is very admirable. So then why charge at all? Just pay for everything out of your back pocket; rent, utilities, etc. Just do it for free if it is not a business for you.

Thank you. Asking a student to put a little into the pot to pay the rent doesn't make it a business, it makes it personal. It becomes 'their' school. And since I closed the school and now teach from my home or others, I don't charge anything. I have no overhead.

Unlike you, other have decided to base their life on being a professional martial arts teacher. In which case they have to treat it like a business which means making profits off of things they do.

Which means they've made a choice. I don't begrudge the honest school owner, making a reasonable living while offering a legitimate product which is fair to every student regardless of whether they're a particular nationality or not. But not having put myself in that situation I have greater flexibility to avoid having to make a 'bottom line' a consideration. In this way I can concentrate solely on the system itself and the best way to teach it.

 

[puunui]

But I can't help but feel that your simply putting an esoteric spin on what boils down to this man selling rank for profit.

You can feel whatever you want, just like he can do whatever he wants.

Interesting opinion you postulate given you were so interested in me and my instructors rank. Why would it matter? If later on this afternoon I decided to promote myself to 8th Dan in my own system would you have something to say about it? By your own words, it really doesn't matter what the number is on the paper, it is who you are and what you know that shines through. I'm not planning to do so by-the-way, just tossing out an example. But then you seemed to have a bit of a snit about going from 6th to 7th in one year, despite the restructuring of my rank to the new system to incorporate the totality of my 36 years in the martial arts. Which I found rather odd since you didn't bat an eye about a Korean buying his rank and going from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year. A bit of a double standard it would seem. Pick one stance to stand on and stick with it my friend.

First of all, you are not my friend, you are my junior, whether you use your 1995 Korean martial arts start date, your IKA rank or even your martial arts start date which you tell us is 1975. Secondly, I did pick a stance when we discussed it the first time. I really don't care what your rank is. But you obviously do, and it was interesting watching you try to justify your questionable promotions while criticizing other people's promotions.

Third, Kukkiwon certification is the most desired Taekwondo certification in the world, even if you don't think so. There are people out there who would do almost anything to possess it.

Fourth, you have accused me of all kinds of stuff. Not only me, but a lot of people and taekwondo as a whole too. You pretty much have nothing good to say about Taekwondo, and you constantly and unendingly criticize its value for self defense, its teachers, its certification, its commercialism, its "cookie cutter" poomsae, and its competition aspects. And you seem to express your negative opinions regarding Taekwondo with a lot of anger and hostility. I cannot help but feel like people who went out of their way to tear down the USTU felt the same anger and hostility when they were doing their thing, as did competitor who is the subject of this thread. You have a lot in common with those people, and probably don't even know it.

I'm actually going on vacation starting tomorrow, the first one in three years, and I need to take care of a lot of things at work before I go. So if I don't respond for a while, that is the reason. But even if I weren't so busy at the moment, I don't know how much more we can discuss. I think you've already voiced all of your criticisms of Taekwondo that you have, repeatedly, and now you are trying to keep the conversation going by talking about stuff we have all ready discussed at length before.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes I do, which is why I question the need for their existence. It certainly didn't need to grow to the extent it has simply to house peoples certifications. It has become a business. That isn't a disrespectful statement, simply stating a fact.

Why not question any organization's need for existence then, including your own? They are all businesses. Some function for profit some that do not. And again, they do a lot more than house certificates.

Thank you. Asking a student to put a little into the pot to pay the rent doesn't make it a business, it makes it personal.

Yes, it does. You are asking them to pay to practice. You can justify it as taking ownership but you still require money from them in order to participate...a business.

Which means they've made a choice. I don't begrudge the honest school owner, making a reasonable living while offering a legitimate product which is fair to every student regardless of whether they're a particular nationality or not.

But you are suggesting that KKW should not make any money on their certs and then make it mandatory for KKW instructors to not make any money on certs as well. So I would say that is begrudging someone.

But not having put myself in that situation I have greater flexibility to avoid having to make a 'bottom line' a consideration. In this way I can concentrate solely on the system itself and the best way to teach it.

Perhaps I am missing something. I can still concentrate on the system and the best way to teach it and still have a bottom line consideration. Even more so because I have to make sure that what I teach is good quality if I plan on making my bottom line. So how does "flexibility" fall into this? Are you saying that you can just change up what you are teaching on a whim as opposed to keeping a consistent curriculum?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You can feel whatever you want, just like he can do whatever he wants.

This is correct, I can feel the way I choose and he can sell rank if he choses.

First of all, you are not my friend...

Yes, that is evident. However, I can still use the term towards you regardless. That is just one of the things that separate us.

But you obviously do, and it was interesting watching you try to justify your questionable promotions while criticizing other people's promotions.

Now you're whinning Glenn. You don't question your instructor selling rank, but you 'question' a man who has nearly 50 years in the arts promoting a man with 36 years in the arts (and both were/are in careers that involve the real use of the martial arts almost on a daily basis). Another thing that separates us.

Third, Kukkiwon certification is the most desired Taekwondo certification in the world, even if you don't think so. There are people out there who would do almost anything to possess it.

I think you mean that there are people out there willing to do anything to sell it??? And just to clarify, if anyone reading this has truly trained hard, given their all and EARNED the rank of BB and choses the KKW as their cert then thumbs up and I hope it works out for you. My comments are more towards those that haven't earned it or those that sell it. I feel those actions are dishonorable and are a slap in the face for anyone that has earned it.

I'm actually going on vacation starting tomorrow, the first one in three years, and I need to take care of a lot of things at work before I go. So if I don't respond for a while, that is the reason

I hope you have an awesome vacation. Just don't let anyone mess around with your left arm. It would suck to be in pain for a whole year and then have to claim it was all part of a magical/mystical technique to make it stronger when it finally healed up.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Why not question any organization's need for existence then, including your own?

Actually, I do including the one I belong to. There really isn't a reason for any of them. A personal instructor's certification is all that you truly need, in my opinion.

The only reason I stay with it is since it ISN"T a business i.e. we've never actually taken in any money and if we did we'd donate it somewhere anyway. We even had official non-profit status in years past but let it drop since we just don't collect money. I don't charge students anymore. I don't charge for seminars. I teach because I love to teach and feel I have something of value to pass on. But as always, YMMV