TSD and TKD

[dancingalone]

If you put a TSD practioner outside of a Kata context, he is doing the same techniques as a Chang Hon practitioner, because TaeKwondo was a mere name change, alongside new Korean katas.

Is he? It's been years since I've been active on this board but I recall reading some posts written by Grandmaster Weiss about the Chang Hon system. He was quite adamant that General Choi had very detailed specifications for each move or basic. That doesn't mean that a Tang Soo Do practitioner can't have the same level of detail in his own learning, but I don't think TSD is as cataloged and documented to the degree that General Choi's system is.

What happened is that some of the old masters were reluctant to adopt the new Chang Hon forms due to politics. If they weren't, there wouldn't have been any Tang Soo Do labelled schools left, because that is the main difference.

You may find that a TSD practitioner is better at X, but this is due to a difference of emphasis, not content.

I will disagree with you with the caveat that not all Tang Soo Do is the same. The groups that retain a greater connection to Hwang Kee's Chinese influences are softer and I do discern a different in their movement from taekwondo people.

 

[Acronym]

Is he? .

Outside of kata, there is no fundamental difference. I can assure you of that since some of my idols growing up did Tang Soo Do and they kick exactly the same way we were taught in ITF.

 

[dancingalone]

Outside of kata, there is no fundamental difference. I can assure you of that since some of my idols growing up did Tang Soo Do and they kick exactly the same way we were taught in ITF.

I believe that is your experience. I would suggest that your experience is not universal however.

 

[Acronym]

I believe that is your experience. I would suggest that your experience is not universal however.

Maybe there's another obscure branch of TSD that I haven't encountered, but the ones I do know of chamber and engage the hips exactly the same way when kicking. That is not true of Shotokan karate however, as many who do both can attest. ITF kicking is the same in Sweden as it is in Bangladesh.

 

[Acronym]

14:10 This is exactly the same way we do it, within a spectrum of varying flexibility.

And since nobody in karate/TKD fights out of kata stances and applications, it is fundamentally the same art outside of those kata and bunkais.

 

[dancingalone]

14:10 This is exactly the same way we do it, within a spectrum of varying flexibility.

And since nobody in karate/TKD fights out of kata stances and applications, it is fundamentally the same art outside of those kata and bunkais.

If you're coming from a sparring approach, I think I would agree with what you say. Consider the soft side however and how one might train the ability to push with force and possibly try to amplify it with your opponent's force. And then think about what if your self-defense drills were embued with such practices. Would that be different than ITF? It is in my opinon.

For lack of a better word, some tang soo do groups are more internal than others. I would not use obscure to describe their size and influence either.

But your own personal experience is your own personal experience. I would never dream to argue with you on YOUR own observations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas.

The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.

This thread is more than 18 months old.

 

[Acronym]

If you're coming from a sparring approach, I think I would agree with what you say. Consider the soft side however and how one might train the ability to push with force and possibly try to amplify it with your opponent's force. And then think about what if your self-defense drills were embued with such practices. Would that be different than ITF? It is in my opinon.

For lack of a better word, some tang soo do groups are more internal than others. I would not use obscure to describe their size and influence either.

But your own personal experience is your own personal experience. I would never dream to argue with you on YOUR own observations.

You're being very abstract. What do you mean concretely would be different in a TSD self defense class from ITF? And which of the two have you actually trained?

 

[dancingalone]

You're being very abstract. What do you mean concretely would be different in a TSD self defense class from ITF? And which of the two have you actually trained?

I don't mean to be abstract. I have a chodan in TSD but it's really an honorary rank. Sadan in kukkiwon TKD, shichidan in Goju-ryu, 4th dan in aikido. Not bragging, it just means I am old and have accumulated time on the mat. I'm definitely past my prime as a martial artist though the mind is still clearer than ever.

I have shared enough with people who train in Korean karate to know there is a WIDE diversity there. It's very important to ask about lineage and forms and actual drills trained to understand what it is that people do. Remember that Hwang Kee studied some tai chi chuan and tan tui and perhaps some long fist before he learned karate (likely from a book, though he shared training time later with Won Kuk Lee). Given that, it should not be hard to visualize some tang soo do people retaining or re-delving back into the Chinese art side that would have softer expressions of their art than perhaps what you have seen yourself.

 

[Acronym]

Hwang Jang Lee, mr Taekwondo. Publisher of a Taekwondo instructional video in the 80s. Guess which board of examinators he sits with? Tang Soo Do! Cynthia Rothrock acted with him and then got graded by him to 7th degree in TSD.

So the old school guys will turn to Tang Soo Do most likely if ITF is not around in their area (a distinct possibility believe it or not). I would too.

Or they even reject todays ITF too

 

[Acronym]

I don't mean to be abstract. I have a chodan in TSD but it's really an honorary rank. Sadan in kukkiwon TKD, shichidan in Goju-ryu, 4th dan in aikido. Not bragging, it just means I am old and have accumulated time on the mat. I'm definitely past my prime as a martial artist though the mind is still clearer than ever.

I have shared enough with people who train in Korean karate to know there is a WIDE diversity there. It's very important to ask about lineage and forms and actual drills trained to understand what it is that people do. Remember that Hwang Kee studied some tai chi chuan and tan tui and perhaps some long fist before he learned karate (likely from a book, though he shared training time later with Won Kuk Lee). Given that, it should not be hard to visualize some tang soo do people retaining or re-delving back into the Chinese art side that would have softer expressions of their art than perhaps what you have seen yourself.

But is this direct Chinese kung fu source something you find in TSD beyond the chinese Katas?

 

[dancingalone]

But is this direct Chinese kung fu source something you find in TSD beyond the chiness Katas?

Well yes. If it is a school that teaches things like sticky hands or hand conditioning/iron palm, it is a Tang Soo Do that retains more Chinese influence. If they study the Sip Sam Seh and try to embue their Japanese origin kata or their self-defense drills with the same ideas, that is another example of Chinese influence.

 

[Bruce7]

It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
Since he had been friends with the general.

 

[Acronym]

Well yes. If it is a school that teaches things like sticky hands or hand conditioning/iron palm, it is a Tang Soo Do that retains more Chinese influence. If they study the Sip Sam Seh and try to embue their Japanese origin kata or their self-defense drills with the same ideas, that is another example of Chinese influence.

Fair enough. But there are ITF schools that teach BJJ, and I still consider that school ITF style Taekwondo without hesitation because the techniques we do share, we perform the same.

In much the same way, I consider Tang Soo Do TaeKwondo, and whatever addition they might have stemming from Chinese Kung Fu does not change that to me. It's just "the same plus X."

 

[Acronym]

It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
Since he had been friends with the general.

Yup. Chois forms was actually a flop until the ITF was established despite his victory with the name change. A lot people still used TSD forms even though they had switched name to TaeKwonDo.

 

[dancingalone]

In much the same way, I consider Tang Soo Do TaeKwondo, and whatever addition they might have stemming from Chinese Kung Fu does not change that to me. It's just "the same plus X."

Tang Soo Do is just the Korean way of saying the same characters that write out "Kara-te". It's very generic. You really have to ask about lineage, forms, and actual drills regularly used to determine the type of training a TSD person has.

But certainly, TSD and TKD share a lot of the same histories and origins and are close in DNA to each other. It's just that depending on the particular TSD school (perhaps the TKD school too - there's also significant variation there IMO), this could be the difference between being a half-uncle or being a full blooded brother.

 

[dancingalone]

It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
Since he had been friends with the general.

For fun sometimes I do my taekwondo poomsae Goju-ryu style. It is an interesting experiment in mindset change.

 

[Acronym]

But certainly, TSD and TKD share a lot of the same histories and origins and are close in DNA to each other. It's just that depending on the particular TSD school (perhaps the TKD school too - there's also significant variation there IMO), this could be the difference between being a half-uncle or being a full blooded brother.

My dear sir, TaeKwonDo was a name change done to Tang Soo Do schools (amongst others). To say Tang Soo Do is not TaeKwonDo is akin to denying that Lexus is Toyota... It's just that not all Tang Soo Do schools agreed to it. That is the simple way of putting it.

 

[Acronym]

2:18

"It wasn't yet called TaeKwonDo"

Chuck is being simplistic for the audience but that is the truth.

 

[Acronym]

Tang Soo Do practitioners are my TaeKwonDo brothers and sisters whether they accept it or not.

Sorry if that offends.