Training Options, Spread It Out Or Concentrate It More?

[skribs]

The new students need to know that MA training is to solve problems. Today, their problems are striker's punch, kicker's kick, and wrestler's leg shoot.

Our general teaching philosophy (which I think is pretty common in TKD) is to teach the puzzle pieces to beginners, and teach advanced students how to put the puzzle together.

Our white belts learn basic punches, basic blocks, basic kicks, and basic counters to a punch or an arm grab. Our advanced students have many different ways of dealing with different situations, and can apply concepts they've learned from hand grabs to punches or kicks (and so on).

 

[PhotonGuy]

Going back to Bruce Lee's quote, I'd personally add a third segment to it. "Fear more the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times, than the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks one time. But fear even more the man who has practiced 10 kicks 1,000 times."

I would be more afraid of the guy who practiced one kick 10,000 times, after all he has his one kick honed to a level that's ten times as much as any of the other guy's 10 kicks. With ten kicks in my opinion you're spreading yourself too thin and somebody who tries using ten kicks could very well find themselves confused as to what kick to throw in any given situation. You don't want to have to think about what kick to use in a situation you just want to use it instinctively and if you try relying on ten different kicks you could easily run into that problem. As I said before, beware the man who trains with only one kick, he's probably very very good with it.

Ideally, it would be best to have one kick that's unstoppable. If you've got a single kick that's unstoppable, that will work in any situation and that will always enable you to win any fight why would you need any other kicks? Of course its impossible to have a single kick developed to the level where its 100% unstoppable and where it will always work in any situation and win any fight so for that reason I think its a good idea that, after picking and developing a favorite kick to a certain level to then pick a second kick and work on that one too.

For me, two or three kicks are enough to rely on along with some good hand strikes, some good defensive techniques, and some good grappling skills. That way I can be a well rounded fighter without spreading myself too thin.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A month in, you'd have forgotten two of them, and the third you'd have no way of throwing in an actual fight. At best, you'd know it exists at a theoretical level.

Well if you take classes you most likely will be using all the basic kicks, to some extent. Its not uncommon for MA classes to warm up with all the basic kicks, along with all the basic hand strikes and other basic techniques. So in your journey in the martial arts you most likely will be using all the basic kicks just from drills you do in class.

What Im talking about is intense training that you do on your own. When you train on your own it might be better to only focus on a few techniques instead of many. That way those few techniques will be developed that much more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ideally, it would be best to have one kick that's unstoppable.

I call that "door guarding" skill. Through our lifetime MA training, we may have developed many soldiers. But how many generals that we can developed? To me, that's more important.

 

[JP3]

For me... I needed to work a "new" kick a lot, on it's own, for a period of about 2 weeks (maybe 6 to 8 workouts) in which I'd focus focus my time on the single kick. I'd do that until I could tell when the coordination witht he kick was improving and the kick was firing off as the instructor seemed to want it to do

Later on, I'd almost always work combinations for two reasons, avoiding training boredom and to accentuate that Everything Flows Into and Out of Combinations.

 

[skribs]

I would be more afraid of the guy who practiced one kick 10,000 times, after all he has his one kick honed to a level that's ten times as much as any of the other guy's 10 kicks. With ten kicks in my opinion you're spreading yourself too thin and somebody who tries using ten kicks could very well find themselves confused as to what kick to throw in any given situation. You don't want to have to think about what kick to use in a situation you just want to use it instinctively and if you try relying on ten different kicks you could easily run into that problem. As I said before, beware the man who trains with only one kick, he's probably very very good with it.

Ideally, it would be best to have one kick that's unstoppable. If you've got a single kick that's unstoppable, that will work in any situation and that will always enable you to win any fight why would you need any other kicks? Of course its impossible to have a single kick developed to the level where its 100% unstoppable and where it will always work in any situation and win any fight so for that reason I think its a good idea that, after picking and developing a favorite kick to a certain level to then pick a second kick and work on that one too.

For me, two or three kicks are enough to rely on along with some good hand strikes, some good defensive techniques, and some good grappling skills. That way I can be a well rounded fighter without spreading myself too thin.

That's called a "one trick pony." If you miss, or if you're fighting someone who's seen you fight, or if your kick connects but fails, (or simply if their fighting style doesn't leave them open to it), then you have 0 tricks that will work.

Well if you take classes you most likely will be using all the basic kicks, to some extent. Its not uncommon for MA classes to warm up with all the basic kicks, along with all the basic hand strikes and other basic techniques. So in your journey in the martial arts you most likely will be using all the basic kicks just from drills you do in class.

What Im talking about is intense training that you do on your own. When you train on your own it might be better to only focus on a few techniques instead of many. That way those few techniques will be developed that much more.

The comment you quoted was directed at the person I quoted.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I call that "door guarding" skill. Through our lifetime MA training, we may have developed many soldiers. But how many generals that we can developed? To me, that's more important.

Unfortunately having a single technique, or even a single art that's unstoppable, is an impossibility.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's called a "one trick pony." If you miss, or if you're fighting someone who's seen you fight, or if your kick connects but fails, (or simply if their fighting style doesn't leave them open to it), then you have 0 tricks that will work.

That's why I would want a second and third kick as well as some hand strikes, but for me, if I tried to develop ten kicks, I would be spreading myself too thin. I wouldn't want to end up being a jack of all trades master of none.

 

[skribs]

That's why I would want a second and third kick as well as some hand strikes, but for me, if I tried to develop ten kicks, I would be spreading myself too thin. I wouldn't want to end up being a jack of all trades master of none.

Well we were talking about 4 basic kicks...

 

[dvcochran]

Unfortunately having a single technique, or even a single art that's unstoppable, is an impossibility.

Oh, I don't know. You need to ask @drop bear about that one.

 

[Flying Crane]

Both of the Taekwondo schools I have gone to teach more than one kick on the first day. A big part of it is that you're in a class full of people, all training together. If we only had the newcomers do one technique at a time, then they'd spend half the class not doing much, or we'd spend half the class re-arranging groups so nobody feels "overwhelmed".

I dunno, maybe they can spend the class actually working on the one or two things the have learned. Why would they stop working just because the rest of the class, who has been there longer, is working on things that the new guy hasn’t yet learned?

I will assume that whatever kicks are taught on the first day are not taught in a vacuum. Meaning: there must be some context, some stance work at the very least and perhaps a little stepping and maybe a punch and a block also taught on that first day? That seems like plenty of material for a beginner to work on for an hour or two even if left by himself for part of the time while the teacher works for a while with the other students.

Another part of it is that the students don't have to memorize everything or learn everything on day 1. You do the 4 basic kicks (in our case: front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, and axe kick) on Day 1. You do those 4 kicks on Day 2. You do those 4 kicks on Day 3. You can probably figure out the pattern here. Yes, on Day 2 they may not have those kicks perfected. And that's fine. They're building muscle memory that will help them learn those kicks.

I've taught the four basic kicks to literally hundreds of people on day one of their training. And they've all learned those kicks. 99% of them have learned them (at least the basic movement of them) in just a couple of weeks.

Do I fail to meet your Day 1 standard? Probably. But I'm not interested in what my students have retained from Day 1. In fact, I expect they'll forget 90% of what I taught them by Day 2. I also expect that after a couple of months of class, they'll know everything I've taught them up until that point. Barring really young kids or certain exceptions, that's also been pretty much true. This means your benchmark is meaningless, unless you only expect students to take one class.

If you are happy with your methods, I’m not gonna argue with you about it. Do what you feel works.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well we were talking about 4 basic kicks...

Those are the 4 basic kicks I learned early on in my primary style. Some styles might have more or less basic kicks that they teach to beginners and routinely practice in classes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well we were talking about 4 basic kicks...

Many TKD teachers (Jhoon Rhee, Kim Soo, ...) believe it takes 6 months to develop a solid kick. So 4 kicks should take 2 years to master it.

IMO, whether you take the breadth first approach, or depth first approach, the require time will be the same.

If you continue to train kicking combo, it will take more time after 2 years.

 

[skribs]

Many TKD teachers (Jhoon Rhee, Kim Soo, ...) believe it takes 6 months to develop a solid kick. So 4 kicks should take 2 years to master it.

IMO, whether you take the breadth first approach, or depth first approach, the require time will be the same.

If you continue to train kicking combo, it will take more time after 2 years.

That assumes that:

1. They work on the kicks for the same amount of time. This may not be true, because if there's more kicks they may spend more time training (because they don't get bored of the one kick).
2. They can't learn about one kick from another. Half of the principles that go into a good front kick also go into a good roundhouse kick or a good side kick. Someone who has trained a good front kick in 6 months can train a good side kick in 2-3 months. If you're training all of them together, you can learn things about the movements that you might not have if you only trained one.

 

[skribs]

I dunno, maybe they can spend the class actually working on the one or two things the have learned. Why would they stop working just because the rest of the class, who has been there longer, is working on things that the new guy hasn’t yet learned?

For kids, if we're not managing them, they usually stop practicing and goof off.
For adults, they can manage their time well enough to practice that stuff at home.

If you are happy with your methods, I’m not gonna argue with you about it. Do what you feel works.

It was more the brash comment about how anyone who teaches that way is an idiot that got me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It was more the brash comment about how anyone who teaches that way is an idiot that got me.

It's not right or wrong that we are talking about here. It's the "trade off" that we have discussed.

Most instructors (myself included) like to show off in front of new students in order to take their tuition.

One day a guy walked into my school and asked what I would teach him in the 1st month. I showed him a form (I tried to be a good salesman). In that form, there is only 1 front kick. After I finished the form, he said, "Only 1 kick". He then left.

Another day a guy walked into my school and asked the similar question, I showed him the Bruce Lee's famous 3 kicks combo. That guy singed in my class.

Believe it or not, when another MA school opened, the instructor taught his students this Bruce Lee triples kicks combo on the 1st day (I watched it with my own eyes).

 

[dvcochran]

Many TKD teachers (Jhoon Rhee, Kim Soo, ...) believe it takes 6 months to develop a solid kick. So 4 kicks should take 2 years to master it.

IMO, whether you take the breadth first approach, or depth first approach, the require time will be the same.

If you continue to train kicking combo, it will take more time after 2 years.

Based on what unit of measure? Practice 7 days/week xxx hours/day? 3 days week xxxvminutes/day? Two years is too vague an answer to really mean anything.
That said, I am a proponent of time being the best teacher. Even someone as thickheaded as me can figure some things out on their own given enough time. The quality of the time spent is paramount. Good instruction and practice will shorten the time to proficiency for most anyone. Of course 'proficiency' is a very subjective term.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I don't know. You need to ask @drop bear about that one.

It think the conversation is kind of silly. It doesn't take in to account a lot of factors that determine progress. And everyone is reaching for conclusions that nobody has a hope of knowing.

virgins arguing about sex.

 

[JP3]

Our general teaching philosophy (which I think is pretty common in TKD) is to teach the puzzle pieces to beginners, and teach advanced students how to put the puzzle together.

Our white belts learn basic punches, basic blocks, basic kicks, and basic counters to a punch or an arm grab. Our advanced students have many different ways of dealing with different situations, and can apply concepts they've learned from hand grabs to punches or kicks (and so on).

My aikido students are very often surprised to learn That their wrist-release methods/forms are equally as useful as blocks for inbound strikes, so I can get behind that. They're not taught the same way, certainly, but the finished product works in both situations... just a question of opening the mind to the actual "problem."

 

[skribs]

It's not right or wrong that we are talking about here. It's the "trade off" that we have discussed.

My comment wasn't directed at you, but specifically towards the person who called my style of teaching the style of an idiot.