Training guns with blanks

[MisterMike]

If it's a different way to train, then isn't is presumeable that there are different lessons to learn?

The same way that you can train hard or soft with a fist. There are levels of training that can be appraoched with time and experience.

 

[kenpo12]

If it's a different way to train, then isn't is presumeable that there are different lessons to learn?

No lessons are learned in the morgue.

 

[Seig]

The first gun defense I teach goes thus:
Sacrifice of the Rod
The attacker has a pistol held to your forehead.
1.) From a natural stance raise both hands to head level making sure to keep your elbows anchored.
2.) As the attacker demands your wallet, bring your left hand to the check position. Your right hand descends in a reverse downward claw at hip level.
3.) Using torque, claw your back pocket. With a two finger pinch, remove your wallet.
4.) With the wallet firmly between your thumb and forefinger, execute a thrusting uppercut.
5.) Wait for the attacker to take the wallet and return hands to the head level position.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by kenpo12
No lessons are learned in the morgue.

or by the thick-skulled.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah, I actually used much the same gun defense long before I started kenpo...got stupid, got massively in the wrong place at the wrong time, guy sitting next to me stuck a little .22 revolver right behind my left ear...breathing slowed, hands went gently and slowly up, and I uttered my immortal war-cry..."My wallet's in my right-hand hip pocket...would you like to get it, or shall I?"

I also distinctly remember, some years later, bagging a 19-year-old kid for about 90 minutes while the transplant team got called, his aunt and mom wrung their hands and tried to talk to him, crying, and a priest came in...he'd stuck a little .22 next to an ear....22 shorts it fired...lovely fragment path from 1-2" wide, zig-zagged back and forth from side to side of the skull film...yes, that really does happen. Brain-dead, of course.

I am sorry that Michael does not care for some of the arguments here. For those few readers who don't already know this, train hard, train as safe as possible. Training kenpo with a real gun, a live blade, guarantees that sooner or later you or somebody you train with will be hurt. Badly.

First rule of gun safety--as was already mentioned--is this: all guns are always treated as loaded. Second rule: never point a gun at ANYTHING you are not going to shoot. If you train with a real gun, let alone one loaded with"harmless," blanks, you are violating both rules.

I would be happy to hear about this from gun people out there...

There may indeed be a very, very few people out there (Like SEALS, but even there, I bet not) who need to train in the fashion Michael insists upon. I have never met one. It is very unlikely that YOU have ever met one. And we are NOT these people. If that makes us nancy-boys, well, that there is life.

I apologize a bit for pursuing this. But in this particular case, I think it is very important that anybody reading this forum who's thinking about this even vaguely hear this very, very clearly: real guns and live blades are a bad, bad idea.

To quote kenpo12, never never never never never, never never never train with a real gun.

 

[Seig]

I can speak with some authority on this, albeit second hand. My late step-father was a man named Will Keller. In his Navy Career, he went from enlisted to commissioned to retire as enlisted. He originally joined the Navy in Jan 1942, he was 14 years old. He spent his 15th birthday on Guadalcanal. When the NCDU was formed, Will volunteered and was accepted. He stayed with the unit as it evolved into UDT and later EOD. He spent WWII as a NCDU supporting the Marine Raiders. In Korea, he spent his time in the north conducting UDT exercises. He treained the first SEAL team to go to Vietnam. He was on the "Team before One", before they were officially designated SEALS. Before he was to receive the "Budweiser", he was approached by the DoD, his entire team retired from the Navy and went back to work for the DoD, doing the exact same thing as civilians, for higher pay and better benefits. They spent 3 straight years in Vietnam as civilian combatants. (Will called Robert Marchenco (sp?) a loose cannon and someone who should not have been on the teams). Will came into mine and my mother's lives in early 1974. I said all that to say all this. This man, who was a pioneer in "real combat", had a lot to say about training with and against weapons. He had a lot to do with forming my judgement. He felt that you never trained with "real guns" in a hand to hand scenario. He felt that training accidents should never happen. They did do some "live knife" training. They did this with the "dummy" wearing a "cut proof suit" and a medic on hand. He felt that training was "idiotic and formulated by a moron". What he often said to me was, "Son, train with the dummy equipment. If you ever need the training and don't freeze from fear, it will serve you well; better than if you never trained at all." His belief was,"If you respect all weapons, you shouldn't have to fear them. If you do not respect them, they will kill you."

 

[MisterMike]

Well, since the gun issue keeps being tossed back at me like I've said anything about it, I guess I'll finally address it.

I would look for a replica, so that you can see the differences between a revolver and a magazine fed weapon. If all you train with is a rubber cutout, as I've seen at many Kenpo schools, you're not getting the feel of the weight of a real gun, among other things.


As for knives, this doesn't mean go slashing each other across the chest. But being faced with a real knife at some point in your training is completely different than imagining that piece of oak is a real blade. Just walking through one of your techniques with a real blade you'll probably pick up a few places where you'll want to check yourself a little more. Or you may find in that initial overhead stab, your beginning to arch your back away from it just watching your opponent raise his arm up. It puts a little more discipline in the training, among other things.


Frankly, if at some point you can't introduce a real weapon in the classroom, you probably haven't got much business teaching how to defend against them. Lawyers and lawsuits aside, that's just the reality of it, and most schools aren't in it. But they have plenty in the snack bar and lots of 6 foot trophies.

It's one thing to say these are the 2 ends of the training spectrum, but then to come off and say don't ever do one of them, well, I'd say don't ever train with a wooden stick and tell me your a knife fighter.


:goop:

 

[teej]

Dear Moderator, I started this thread. I believe that the safety issue of training with a gun loaded with blanks as been addressed. My point was to inform the untrained and possibly uneducated in gun safety, that may be following some previous posts, of the life threatening dangers of blanks in guns. Other live weapons training warnings have surfaced as well. I believe that as educators, we have done our part to warn any potential accident victims viewing this site.

Please end and close this thread.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[rmcrobertson]

One last time, then:

If you train kenpo with a real gun, sooner or later you or somebody you know is going to get badly hurt. All guns are always, always, always to be treated as loaded.

If you train kenpo techniques in any meaningful fashion (other than Long Form 8, which is what it's for) with a live blade, you or someone you train with is going to get badly cut. Very badly. Sooner rather than later.

It is vital to be realistic about martial arts training. This includes thinking through some of your hangups about hypermasculinity and what Donohue calls, "warrior dreams," just as much as it includes thinking through some of your hangups about fear, embarassment, lack of focus, and all the rest.

It is impossible to train for all eventualities. Try for a reasonable middle ground.

It is unwise to completely rack yourself up for the long term, which you will do if you train with real guns, live blades and kenpo techniques, unless you are in extraordinarily-rare circumstances. Even then, as Seig pointed out, it's almost certainly unnecessary.

To rewrite Mr. Chapel a little, even when we walk out in the parking lot, there still are no ninjas in the parking lot. And a good thing too.

 

[Seig]

Adressing the issue of closing and locking the thread. I understand why Teej is asking for the thread to be closed; however, I am disinclined to acquiesce. I feel that the thread drift as it has occurred has been within the spirit of the topic and it hs not gone into the realm of disrespect. If at any time, this thread does either. I will reevaluate at that time.
-Seig-
-MT Admin Team-

 

[KenpoTex]

To start with, this has been a very interesting thread and there have been some excellent points made...now for my two cents. I do feel that it is beneficial to train as close to reality as you can without being unsafe or negligent. For those who don't like rubber cutouts and wooden knives there are options available that are considerably safer than using the real thing. for example, you can get training weapons, which I think are called "redguns," that are used by many police departments. they make models to look like many different types of handguns and they are the exact same size (and I would assume the same weight) as the guns they represent. as far as knives go you can get knives from Benchmade that are exactly like their normal folders except that the blades are not ground to an edge. these are nice b/c they open and lock just like their functional counterparts. You can also get knives made by Gerber that are made so you can put powdered chalk on the edge to show if the knife comes into contact with someone's body.
As for the real gun thing, as a die-hard gun enthusiast I would NEVER use a functional weapon in training, there is absolutly no reason for even the slightest risk of an accident in this area.